Teach me about full hydraulic steering.

[RockMonkey]

Teach me about full hydraulic steering

I no longer have any reason to keep a steering box, so I want to go to full hydraulic. What do I need to know about orbital valves? Will my existing power steering pump be sufficient? Where do I get orbital valves, what features should I look for, how much should I pay, and what not?

Single, or double ended ram? What bore size? Wher should I get one? Am I best off getting a hydraulic stearing kit, or can I put together my own for less $$$ and have just as good results?

 

[I Lean]

Your existing pump can work fine. (assuming it works fine...) Better pumps are naturally going to be.....better. And more $$.

Double-ended cylinders will give you the same number of turns lock-to-lock both directions, single ended you'll have more turns of the steering wheel one direction. DE gives you the option of having a load-reactive orbital or not, SE you shouldn't use a load-reactive valve with. (gives you "road feel" and return to center action)

Start here, there's good info on there. Then compare with other suppliers of full kits (PSC, Howe, POS [Station]) and components (Northern Tool, etc) to get more info and make your decision.

Also, consider calling and talking to Scott@Rockstomper, he'll talk your ear off and educate you well. Station was equally helpful for my setup on my old rig, and I've heard nothing but good things about PSC as well, though I've never dealt with them personally.

 

[RockMonkey]

I drove your old rig a bit and liked the way it felt. Was it "load reactive"? Do you remember the details of your setup? Brands, models? I think I would like return to center, but I don't know if "load reactive" would do much for me. Can you get one without the other?

 

[Herzog]

Here is my setup:

• Stock 89 XJ saginaw power steering pump
• Char-Lynn 211-1010-002 Hydrostatic steering valve (seems to be about 3 turns lock to lock... slightly more one direction because of the single ended ram)
• This 8x2 Lion Hydraulic Tie Rod Ram
• Small oil cooler on the return line

And that's it.

The single ended ram causes the valve to cycle while turning a lot. In other words, your steering wheel will go around in a circle because it takes a little more fluid to steer one direction than the other. But you don't even really notice it unless you are watching the steering wheel.

My setup works excellent and has never been unstable at high speeds (60 + even...)

A double ended ram would be nice, but IMO not worth the extra cash for just plain return to center. It's almost natural enough to find center with a single ended ram.

A better pump would be the only thing I would change. At lower RPMs, it will not steer as fast as you'd like in some instances... but it's always worked and it does work well.

A reason you hear about people burning up stock pumps with full-hydro setups is valve incompatibility (closed center). You want an open center valve with your stock pump so it can constantly cycle the fluid even when there is not driver input.

That's about all I can think of for now.

 

[I Lean]

I drove your old rig a bit and liked the way it felt. Was it "load reactive"? Do you remember the details of your setup? Brands, models? I think I would like return to center, but I don't know if "load reactive" would do much for me. Can you get one without the other?

Load reactive = return to center.

Mine was a load reactive valve with a DE ram, both from Station. Don't know the specs of the valve though, he chose the components based on our discussion on how many turns lock-to-lock I wanted.

I just used the stock pump that came with the 4.3, and it was OK...like Herzog, it was a little bit slower than I'd have liked at idle, but otherwise good.

If you're going to buck up for a DE ram, you may as well have a load reactive valve too. If you go the other way, you'll save a little bit of money on a non-load-reactive valve, and a LOT of money on a single ended ram.

 

[Kiel]

I am also planning on running full hydro, now I know a big "IF" has always been what happens if your buggy dies, you don't have steering. Is the load reactive orbitals, the ones that at least give you "some" really hard manual steering? My plan is double ended ram, load reactive and stock pump

 

[Crinco]

I have a DE ram and I got the system from Station, spent hours on the phone with him (He will talk your ear off too!) for my front end. I think it is very important to point out that I DID NOT buy a system from him for the back of my buggy. I contacted him and asked him if he was interested in resolving our issues before I bought parts for the rear and and his responce was, well, disappointing.
Here is the story. I ordered $1300.00 worth of parts from him, a month later they finally showed and the box was in shreads. About $400.00 worth of parts were gone.( Thanks UPS!!!) When I called Sean, he said he would file a claim with UPS and take care of it, so I left it at that. I had been waiting so long for the parts I asked him to overnight the replacement parts which he did and they showed up three days later. Again a claim was to be filed because the Shipment was "gauranteed" to be next day and it wasn't. He failed to file both claims with UPS, I never got anything out of it, and The parts for my front end cost me $1700.00.
I ordered my rear steer from PSC and got it all and well packaged one week later.
The Valve I got from Station is hard to turn, slow, and does not return to center. I put on a new pump a couple weeks ago hoping it would solve the problem and it didn't, so I guess I am looking for a new Valve now.
Sorry this sounds like complaining, I guess it is, but even those who should know what they are doing don't always seem too. I would like to know what went wrong with my system, it is supposed to be the same he sells to 90% of the people he sells to. I am going to look for a number on my valve and see if I can find a number on it.
Sean is a really nice guy, I would go wheeling with him any time, but I am not happy with the way things turned out for my buggy.
CR

 

[Kiel]

Thats bad news buddy, give it to me, I"ll make it work

 

[Caleb]

I am also planning on running full hydro, now I know a big "IF" has always been what happens if your buggy dies, you don't have steering. Is the load reactive orbitals, the ones that at least give you "some" really hard manual steering? My plan is double ended ram, load reactive and stock pump

yes, atleast with my setup, I could turn it if the engine was dead. It was hard to turn and I imagine in an off-camber situation it would be VERY hard but it's doable. I don't remember parts I used or anything, I do know I used the smaller DE cylinder from Rockstomper, an aftermarket pump that had different valves for different flow rates, and would return to center.

 

[Herzog]

I am also planning on running full hydro, now I know a big "IF" has always been what happens if your buggy dies, you don't have steering. Is the load reactive orbitals, the ones that at least give you "some" really hard manual steering? My plan is double ended ram, load reactive and stock pump

I can steer with my engine off as well... Very tough to do, but possible. I've had to do it being towed off the trail before. I believe load reactive means that it gives some input back to the wheel. On mine, if I point my steering in one direction, it will tend to stay in that direction without terrain input.

Here are the specs on my 211-1010-002 unit:

System: Open Center
Load Circut: Non-Load Reactive
Rated^ Flow GPM: 4-8
Actual Displacement cu.in/rev: 9.7

 

[RockMonkey]

I can steer with my engine off as well... Very tough to do, but possible. I've had to do it being towed off the trail before. I believe load reactive means that it gives some input back to the wheel. On mine, if I point my steering in one direction, it will tend to stay in that direction without terrain input.

Here are the specs on my 211-1010-002 unit:

System: Open Center
Load Circut: Non-Load Reactive
Rated^ Flow GPM: 4-8
Actual Displacement cu.in/rev: 9.7

Do you wish yours was load reactive, Shane?

 

[Herzog]

Do you wish yours was load reactive, Shane?

I love my steering exactly the way it is. If I were storing my buggy up here I'd let you come try out the steering, but it's down in Price.

 

[Crinco]

I hate mine and it is supposed to be load reactive. I can't drive down winding curvy trails very fast at all because I can't turn it fast enough to make the turn sometimes.
I found my sales invoice and all it says is:
POS-DFO76... Load reactive valve. I am having a hard time finding any specs on this valve without the whole number. I know it is a DanFoss valve but thats all.
CR

 

[timpanogos]

I hate mine and it is supposed to be load reactive. I can't drive down winding curvy trails very fast at all because I can't turn it fast enough to make the turn sometimes.
I found my sales invoice and all it says is:
POS-DFO76... Load reactive valve. I am having a hard time finding any specs on this valve without the whole number. I know it is a DanFoss valve but thats all.
CR

wow, your story sucks. I wonder if you actually have a defective value or something that is greatly reducing flow. Do these systems self purge air? Are you driving front and back with same pump. Did front pump come in the kit, or was it already on engine?

I did not drive it long, but the total beater hydro in the beast was fast to turn (felt naturall). Sounds like the parts are a good system, something just is not operating correctly??

bummer ... hope I don't have trouble with mine

edit

p.s. had to laugh, saw your problem right off, part number started with POS.

 

[Crinco]

POS = Performance Off-road Systems, but yeah I though the exact same thing when I pulled out the invoice.

The pump was the stock pump for the motor originaly and the pump I just put on I bought from PSC. I don't feel there is any improvement at all with the new pump. I am going to call PSC next week and see if they have any suggestions. Easy to turn is NOT one of the phrases I would use to describe this system. I am woundering if the Valve isn't bad myself.
CR

 

[Caleb]

POS = Performance Off-road Systems, but yeah I though the exact same thing when I pulled out the invoice.

The pump was the stock pump for the motor originaly and the pump I just put on I bought from PSC. I don't feel there is any improvement at all with the new pump. I am going to call PSC next week and see if they have any suggestions. Easy to turn is NOT one of the phrases I would use to describe this system. I am woundering if the Valve isn't bad myself.
CR

are you positive you have the lines hooked-up correctly?

 

[Crinco]

I called Sean one day for that very reason, to find out how to hook it up. Having said that, no, I am not sure it is hooked up right. Do you think it would even work though if the in and out lines were switched? I am not sure it would, but at best it would work badly. It would only take a few minutes to reverse the two if that was the case though.
Man I wish I had a heated garage, it gets below zero up here most nights this time of year.
I think I will spend some time with google tonight....
CR

 

[Crinco]

Since I think I kinda high-jacked this thread too, I will post some of the prices I paid for parts I got from POS (Sean Station):

2.5" Bore Cylinder w/8" stroke $380.00
3/4 Clevice ends $32.50 Each
Piece of sh*t valve $320.00
Check Valve (one way valve) $25.00 (anti kickback)
Orbitol Braket $10.00
BSM steering column $42.00
Steering shaft U-joint $52.00
Cooler/Reservoir $125.00
quick release steering wheel hub $75.00

These prices are 15 months old, don't know how much change there might be but at least it gives you ball park idea.
If I can find my invoice for PSC I will post those prices too.
CR

 

[Caleb]

I called Sean one day for that very reason, to find out how to hook it up. Having said that, no, I am not sure it is hooked up right. Do you think it would even work though if the in and out lines were switched? I am not sure it would, but at best it would work badly. It would only take a few minutes to reverse the two if that was the case though.
Man I wish I had a heated garage, it gets below zero up here most nights this time of year.
I think I will spend some time with google tonight....
CR

Here is a good diagram from Howe that shows how it should be hooked-up if it's front steer only, and here is one with rear steer these show the ports and what they go to. If you search on here a little I know I had some slight issues with mine at first and there were some good suggestions in that thread, I don't remember what my problem ended up being.

 

[waynehartwig]

2.5" Bore Cylinder w/8" stroke $380.00
3/4 Clevice ends $32.50 Each
Piece of sh*t valve $320.00
Check Valve (one way valve) $25.00 (anti kickback)
Orbitol Braket $10.00
BSM steering column $42.00
Steering shaft U-joint $52.00
Cooler/Reservoir $125.00
quick release steering wheel hub $75.00
CR

I don't know a whole lot about this, but should you have a check valve in there?