Im new to actually being able to work on trucks and working with metal and stuff. i am wondering if some one would be able to help me understand how exactly to build and how. 3 link setups and also 1/4 elliptical suspension, works any and all information will be greatly apprecatated !!
3 link & 1/4 elliptical help please
- Thread starter ranger05
- Start date
1/4 ellip is cool, but it seems like a pain to configure the spring setup and an axle with a 4 link and 1/4 ellip seems like a crowded/tight fit to me. i have also heard of the springs wearing out a lot.
you should go coilover/air shock and don't look back imo
you should go coilover/air shock and don't look back imo
tiny2085
HomeGrown
- Location
- Two-will-uh
The only help I would give is.... Don't do it. 
no, but in seriousness with an elip setup the arch that the axle would follow would only be the length of the leaf spring. And even with gm springs being long (47'-52") your arm would only be between 23 and 26 inches, and under one side droop and one side compression you would get unwanted axle steer. But if you were to go 4 link with air shocks you could you longer links decreasing the amount of axle steer that is encountered under articulation. Just my .02. I have a link i'll post up too.
no, but in seriousness with an elip setup the arch that the axle would follow would only be the length of the leaf spring. And even with gm springs being long (47'-52") your arm would only be between 23 and 26 inches, and under one side droop and one side compression you would get unwanted axle steer. But if you were to go 4 link with air shocks you could you longer links decreasing the amount of axle steer that is encountered under articulation. Just my .02. I have a link i'll post up too.
RockMonkey
Suddenly Enthusiastic
Okay, first we need to understand what we're talking about here, cuz it sounds like there is some confusion on the basic stuff. There are three main components that a suspension has:
1. Some type of system for locating the axle under the vehicle.
2. Some type of spring to provide the force that holds the chassis up off the axle.
3. Some type of shock to control the movement of the spring.
In many suspensions one component does more than one of those jobs. In a traditional leaf spring suspension, the leaf springs provide both 1 and 2. Air shocks and coilovers provide both 2 and 3. 1/4 eliptic springs and traditional coil springs provide ONLY NUMBER 1. With coil and 1/4 eliptic springs you need to use some system to locate the axle, typically a 4-link, 3-link, or 1-link. There are dozens of possible variations on these systems, but you need to use one with 1/4 eliptic springs. You will also need some shocks in there somewhere.
Now... Why do you want to use 1/4 eliptic springs? The 1/4 eliptic suspension is probably the heaviest possible setup, because you are using leaf springs (which are heavy), and you still need a locating system, and you still need seperate shocks. With the price of air shocks as low as they are, you might be close to the same cost to use air shocks (since you don't need to buy extra shocks). Is this for a rear suspension, by the way?
1. Some type of system for locating the axle under the vehicle.
2. Some type of spring to provide the force that holds the chassis up off the axle.
3. Some type of shock to control the movement of the spring.
In many suspensions one component does more than one of those jobs. In a traditional leaf spring suspension, the leaf springs provide both 1 and 2. Air shocks and coilovers provide both 2 and 3. 1/4 eliptic springs and traditional coil springs provide ONLY NUMBER 1. With coil and 1/4 eliptic springs you need to use some system to locate the axle, typically a 4-link, 3-link, or 1-link. There are dozens of possible variations on these systems, but you need to use one with 1/4 eliptic springs. You will also need some shocks in there somewhere.
Now... Why do you want to use 1/4 eliptic springs? The 1/4 eliptic suspension is probably the heaviest possible setup, because you are using leaf springs (which are heavy), and you still need a locating system, and you still need seperate shocks. With the price of air shocks as low as they are, you might be close to the same cost to use air shocks (since you don't need to buy extra shocks). Is this for a rear suspension, by the way?
grinch
inner city redneck
- Location
- Salt Lake City
RockMonkey said:
Agreed...... If you cant or wont do air shocks itleast go with coil springs... 1/4 eliptic was one hell of an idea back in the day but verry hard to dial in ride height, spring rate, ect....
Ive seen coils used out of everything from stock tj's to astro mini vans. Long soft coils usually are the best bet.
as far as geometry goes its not somthing you can just learn in a day. There are a lot of different factors to every application and rig that will change the set up. Befor taking on such a drastic change I would suggest going to a local fab shop and talking to the guys there. They can get you the parts you cant make yourself and help plan out a suspention...
- Location
- Grand Junction, CO
ranger05 said:
Here's a thread about a 4 Link I was working on...
http://www.rockymountainextreme.com/showthread.php?t=12409&highlight=link
thanks
Thank you for all your help i guess the question now is how i do i get started learning about how a 4 link works and what i need to do to make it right? anyone want to help with that one please do i only know a little bit and its not good right now so any basics would help me alot thanks
Thank you for all your help i guess the question now is how i do i get started learning about how a 4 link works and what i need to do to make it right? anyone want to help with that one please do i only know a little bit and its not good right now so any basics would help me alot thanks
- Location
- Grantsville, Utah
To be honest, you need to do a ton of searching and reading. Peterson 4 wheel and Offroad did a really nice write up that explains a lot of the basics. Use "link" "article" "4 link" "antisquat" "roll center" for search parameter words. Go on trail rides and study any vehicles with custom link setups. Try to understand what makes certain setups act the way they do on the trail.
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Tacoma
Et incurventur ante non
- Location
- far enough away
you also might want to take a look at mountain bike suspensions. Think of it as one side of the 4 link, you can see how the pivots change or virtually eliminate the arc of travel, etc etc. Models are good to make as well, then you can scale down your components and see how they'd work on a larger scale before you start cutting tube.
Pivot locations are fairly critical.
Pivot locations are fairly critical.
tiny2085
HomeGrown
- Location
- Two-will-uh
i have the petersen's article, and here are the pics that explain it all.
RockMonkey
Suddenly Enthusiastic
The conversion of the uppers and lowers (as viewed from the side), along with the angle of the control arms to the ground are the two major factors that determine anti-squat. So far, no one seems to have nailed down the perfect anti-squat amount that works best. Everybody has an opinion, and lots of different setups can work. Personally, I think very little anti-squat is the way to go, which means parallel or very close to it, and as close to level with the ground as possible.xj_punk said:
thats what i was talking about. i read up on links a whole lot last year, especially a-s. it seems quite a few buggies now are running their uppers and lowers on the frame side with no vertical separation, but they are also running tight limiting straps. i am not sure what i think about that setup, seems to cause a lot of a-s.
if i was to build one i would make it super neutral (parallel from side view) at first and then adjust the frame side separation for more a-s accordingly to how comfortable i became with the setup.
there are also a lot of buggies running straight 4 links with panhards/tracbars
because they are easier to fit into tight places. not sure how i feel about tracbars either... part of the reason i went to leafs up front
if i was to build one i would make it super neutral (parallel from side view) at first and then adjust the frame side separation for more a-s accordingly to how comfortable i became with the setup.
there are also a lot of buggies running straight 4 links with panhards/tracbars
because they are easier to fit into tight places. not sure how i feel about tracbars either... part of the reason i went to leafs up front
grinch
inner city redneck
- Location
- Salt Lake City
xj_punk said:
A lot of the buggies are actually running offset 3 links with track (panhard) bars.... Basicly it just a 4 link minus 1 of the arms..... Even better for those tight spaces.....
billyray66
Registered User
3 link.
Most everyone says that a 3 link is a bad idea, I built a 3 link wishbone suspension on the rear of my jeep and have had great luck with. I used front coils out of a grand cherokee, and i couldnt be happier. And to add a little note if you are able to build it yourself it is 10 times cheaper than coilovers or air shocks, but dont get me wrong 4 link coilovers or airshocks are great setup if you have the $. If you would like post back and i can get you some pics on how to set it up.ranger05 said:
RockMonkey
Suddenly Enthusiastic
Billyray, is your avatar a pic of your rig, with your 3 link?
lol, yeah cause if that is a picture of your and your suspension acts like that, you have some serious geometry issues.
but yeah, 3 links can work just fine. 1/4 liptic I think is dumb, but if it's what you have laying around then cool.
Cody
but yeah, 3 links can work just fine. 1/4 liptic I think is dumb, but if it's what you have laying around then cool.
Cody
RockMonkey
Suddenly Enthusiastic
Billyray, how secure are you? I'd like you to post some better pictures of your 3 link. You may like the way it works, but based on your avatar pic it could work a lot better. This could be a good case study, if you are secure enough to take some criticism. If you don't want to post anything, I understand. Not a problem. From your avatar:
Your suspension geometry in the rear is causing your driver's side rear suspension to jack up. This is likely due to straight lower control arms, and too much anti-squat, though it's impossible to tell from this pic. This causes forced body roll, which unweights the front drivers side tire, causing the condition depicted in your avatar. I have seen this exact thing cause rollovers many times. This condition is not exclusive to three-links. I've seen it happen with four-links just as many (if not more) times. Even if it never causes a rollover, it will cause a loss of traction, and you will not be able to climb things that rigs with better geometry have no trouble with.
Your suspension geometry in the rear is causing your driver's side rear suspension to jack up. This is likely due to straight lower control arms, and too much anti-squat, though it's impossible to tell from this pic. This causes forced body roll, which unweights the front drivers side tire, causing the condition depicted in your avatar. I have seen this exact thing cause rollovers many times. This condition is not exclusive to three-links. I've seen it happen with four-links just as many (if not more) times. Even if it never causes a rollover, it will cause a loss of traction, and you will not be able to climb things that rigs with better geometry have no trouble with.