A Desire Named Streetcar

[jamesgeologist]

A Desire Named Streetcar: A Community Forum Featuring Streetcar Visioning Expert J. Craig Thorpe
February 18th, 2010, 6-8p.m.Union Station, Browning Theater
With two ongoing streetcar studies, Ogden and Weber County are poised to make significant changes to the community landscape that will have lasting impacts. In an effort to promote public awareness and involvement, the Weber County Heritage Foundation and Union Station Foundation would like to invite all Ogden and Weber County residents to an open house and presentation focusing on the positive impacts that streetcars have as “place makers..” The presentation by J. Craig Thorpe will focus on defining what streetcars are, how other cities across the country are utilizing streetcar systems to promote revitalization, and how we, as a community, can plan our future using streetcars as a tool for success. The meeting will include a question and answer session, followed by a brief visioning exercise.
Mr. Thorpe is a rail and trolley artist/illustrator/designer who brings a unique perspective to his work in presenting and consulting on streetcar projects. He is also the communications representative for a start-up trolley line in Issaquah, WA, and brings this firsthand experience regarding historic preservation and streetcars.
Presented by: The Weber County Heritage Foundation and The Union Station Foundation

 

[spencurai]

I chose option #2.

This was a good read

http://www.humantransit.org/2009/07/streetcars-an-inconvenient-truth.html

There have been so many projects that have promised to "revitalize" downtown Ogden but the city is not the sum of it's municipal projects and infrastructure...the city is the people. Unfortunately the population is causing the decay and in these united states we are not allowed to remove the real problem in downtown Ogden.

I know I know...the streetcar was in Ogden before so you guys just want to bring it back. UTA light rail is expensive and not self supporting. Bottom line is this...will street cars cost the taxpayer more or less than the buses that already run the route of the proposed line? If it costs less than running buses then lets do it. If it costs more then screw it!

 

[PBandCJ]

I used the light rail when i lived in utah county (drove to bus,bus to train,train to walking 5 min.) it was nice not dealing with the traffic but hella long (be up @4 to be to work by 7,home by 7-8) i'm not sure i want to deal with the riped up roads for years waiting for it to get finished, being a delivery driver and all

 

[jamesgeologist]

I think that you will find that any city has dozens of ways to look at a problem. I know buses are not a problem in Ogden. There is no real way to decrease the transit time between downtown Ogden and WSU without increasing the speed limit on either Washington or Harrison. It is sixes if you ask me. If it is going to take 15 minutes whichever mode I use (except car) why not go in style?

I would argue that whether or not you wanted it, there was a 1/4 cent sales tax increase passed to address regional transportation issues in Weber County. This money will not go to UTA to make buses better or raise speed limits, it will go to adding lanes or building new roads. It will not make any transportation sense to spend that money on stuff we already have in abundance. The point is, streetcars do fill a need that is greater than ridership, transit time and cost. It is stability. A streetcar buried in the asphalt or concrete is semi-permanent. It is not likely to go anywhere for up to 40+ years. People will live and shop where they know they will have a stable transportation system. The belief is that Transit Oriented Development is as important to the growth and salvation of a city like Ogden as anything else.

It is unlikely any developer or business person in this modern age would look at investing a single dollar along a bus line. A bus line is inherently transient. If ridership falls, the bus line is reallocated. A streetcar is infrastructure that cannot be taken away quite so easily. Developers don't want to worry about whether a bus line will still be there in a few years... Look at UTA now! They are killing bus routes all over the Wasatch Front. Hell they are even cutting down on the FrontRunner. Transit Oriented Development allows for mixed use in urban areas. Retail, office and residential in the same building. Higher density and more people to make the area thrive. More revenue for the system.

Spence is right on the level of how sick our city is. There are so many folks that don't care about Ogden. They are the same people that wouldn't care about any other place they might live. They make cities like Ogden die because of their apathy. There are ways to get them out and those ways are not popular or friendly. But Ogden is trying to get them to shape up or ship out. Both the Administration and the City Counsel are taking some pretty aggressive measures to turn this town around.

Spencer doesn't live in Ogden so he doesn't care about what goes on here, but he should. It is his apathy that makes it harder for those of us who do live here and are working to bring change. I don't care if Spence hates Ogden. I don't care if there are ten Spencers in North Ogden. I do care that there are entire cities around Ogden that think just like him. He and people like him that choose to live farther away from the city center make my taxes higher. They make my infrastructure weak. They take more money per capita for police, fire and rescue due to their distance from major operation centers. I won't even get into the ridiculous subsidies provided for roads and infrastructure that exist outside our urban center. We could even talk about why he lives outside of the city. His taxes are less as a percentage, however he enjoys higher property values. Or does he feel more comfortable outside of the brown shadow?

Bottom line is that it is rarely ever prudent to buy anything based purely on its costs. Much more thought goes into transit project than "If it costs more then screw it!". Ogden could see a Federal infusion of up to $100million dollars and a conservative multiplier of 35:1 for transit oriented development over the next 20 years. I am sure the multiplier for buses is not 35:1 for TOD in any city. Sometimes you have to be willing to spend money in order to make money. Am I hell bent on a streetcar? No. Do I advocate streetcar? Yes. Would I be disappointed if we failed to bring one to Ogden? Yes. Would I like to throw Spencer under the bus? Absolutely!

 

[spencurai]

So basically we need to get ourselves "Stuck" with a streetcar system so it will bring business around it. We should throw money out there in hopes that business will come? We have massive amounts of empty shop space all throughout Ogden...will business come there if we put a street car line in front of it? Nope...streetcars are semi permanent but it didn't stop Ogden from removing it in the first place, they just paved over the rails and said "Screw it!" I know there were other factors bordering on downright conspiracy with oil companies and automobile companies but seriously...

Not very many companies are investing in Ogden as it is. I know the mayor has brought in some great outdoors companies and was hoping to bring in more with the silly tram system they were pushing. Ogden is in stagnation just like everywhere else and adding an alternate mode of transportation is not going to change that. I will never ride a street car because I don't need to. Everywhere I go has ample parking for any of my vehicles of choice. If you live withing a few blocks of the line you will be the only people benefiting from the line. We don't have a city with diverse districts and areas that need to be accessed by a street car line. We have a downtown of about 20 square blocks.

You speak of the "Brown Shadow" and I will be the first to say that YES...I live in north ogden because I don't have to worry as much about keeping my property mine. When I lived in downtown ogden I was constantly being robbed. Even if it was chained down or bolted to the inside of my vehicle it was getting stolen. I've lost mountain bikes, stereos, tools, everything!!! Hell I even got my window smashed in while sitting in your driveway...remember? didn't you just get your cargo box on your jeep smashed in a few weeks ago? Changing public transportation isn't going to change how big of a crap-hole Ogden is.

Putting in a street car isn't going to fix the town. It isn't going to make it better. I applaud you guys in your neighborhood for making that street a better place than when you moved in but what happened is you and your neighbors got rid of the trashy people by buying up the houses, renovating them, and getting them in the hands of decent like minded folks.

Maybe the street car will make ridding Ogden of the "Brown Shadow" easier...I don't know. I believe in urban renewal. I would love nothing more than to own a building downtown, live on the top floor, have a business on the ground floor, and have a bitchen garage in the basement. I would LOVE to live in Ogden proper. I like the town, I was raised there, it is MY town. The problem is that the "Brown shadow" is thinking something similar and their ideas of a community do not align with my ideas so I live in the suburbs where it is quiet, safe, and relatively crime free. I live around predominantly like minded people. Birds of a feather flock together and since I don't like the other flock, I stay away.

Call it racism, or prejudice, or stereotyping...I don't care because it's how I feel. I will never return to living in Ogden until I can feel safe that my vehicle wont be robbed by roving bands of gang members. And then there was the time that Nate's neighbor was raided by OPD while we were all sitting on the porch hanging out...that was fun. A sign of progress decidedly not punctuated with the sound of a street car going by. Get federal money for more cops...that is something I can get behind.

 

[spencurai]

it put ogdenville on the map....

[YOUTUBE]AEZjzsnPhnw[/YOUTUBE]

 

[solidfrontaxle]

"Sorry, Mom, the mob has spoken." Lol. Awesome.