Winters/art carr shifter for the win
Auto VS Manual Trans
- Thread starter redrussell
- Start date
Winters/art carr shifter for the win
Jinx
when in doubt, upgrade!
- Location
- So Jordan, Utah
I am pretty sure all can have manual valve bodies... I have lokar shifter in one rig and art carr/winters in the other. I would lean you towards the Art carr, its quicker, easier.
Novak used to have the best knowledge base to check/research ratios on the tranny. It seems like the 700R4 spread was something like 3.06, 1.73, 1, .75.
I would start with your distance drive ratios, the speed you want to go at what RPM for the tire size you want to run, then work backwards. So for example- 70 mph on 37" tires at 2500 rpm at what ever your overdrive ratio is.
That will give the ratio you want in your axles. From there you can could determine which low range ratio or T-case options to get to a crawl ratio you want to crawl/wheel with...
I am pretty big fan of a spread sheet to consider the options.
Lot of crawlers tend to gear their axles a little too low for highway travel, I think Tcases and axle combos are a better options for lower gears, but then again I run a 4spd Atlas, so I have lots of low range options.
let me know if this makes sense.
Pile of parts
Well-Known Member
- Location
- South Jordan
Lot of crawlers tend to gear their axles a little too low for highway travel, I think Tcases and axle combos are a better options for lower gears, but then again I run a 4spd Atlas, so I have lots of low range options.
I don't want to hijack this thread but I would like to talk to you, Jinx, about your 4 speed atlas and maybe you could explain why so many ratios needed behind an auto. Just so this has something to do with the thread - I run a T-18 and, I guess, am a die hard manual fan. I have a dana 300, stock ratio, 5.38 gears and 39.5" tires all behind a TBI 350. I love the different ratios I have with the 4 speed trans but would like more options - hence the 4 speed t-case idea. As many have stated prior, this could probably all be resolved with and automatic but I just don't know the difference and I like my manual! The argument will go on forever but it really comes down to preference.
Jinx
when in doubt, upgrade!
- Location
- So Jordan, Utah
No problem, a quick explanation of why I did the 4spd. I loved my d300 2.62 to 1, but always wished I 4 to 1 kit on certain obstacles for better control... Then would get stuck behind someone with 4 to 1 tcase putting down the trail in low range. So I usually go Low 1 (2.7) for trail riding so I don't stress my tranny, hit Low 2 (3.8) for playing a little harder, to be honest I don't usually use/play with Low 3 (10.34) unless I am confident I won't bind anything (you could blow up drivelines and axle shafts with that kind of torque multiplier) and need more control, like wedges down in Price where I want to go slow and be able to make adjustments without riding the brakes.
I have a couple buddies who run manuals (t18s np435s) and super low tcases it works awesome. They usually use 3rd gear where they usually use 1st and then use 2nd and 1st as necessary.
PM your number and we can talk.
This was me for a long time. dana300/231 combo. Using 2nd gear in the AX5 while in low/low was about the same as a single tcase with 4:1 gears so I had a lot of gearing options. Same thing now with the 700R4 with manual valve body, still have the same options. I really like having all the gearing options dual cases or a 4 speed case can give you, whether your running an auto or manual.
Spork
Tin Foil Hat Equipped
- Location
- Saratoga Springs, UT
You really ought to check out one of these transmissions....
[video=youtube;rLDgQg6bq7o]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLDgQg6bq7o[/video]
[video=youtube;rLDgQg6bq7o]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLDgQg6bq7o[/video]
BCGPER
Starting Another Thread
- Location
- Sunny Arizona
That took longer that I thought....
Sporty cars = manual* unless you DD it in heavy traffic.
Everything else = automatic
Forget all that manly man garbage, use what's best for the particular application.
*I've never driven an automatic with flappy paddle manual shifting and have limited experience driving my wife's automatic w/manual shift mode. These may be a better option, or perhaps just a good compromise, compared to a traditional manual.
Everything else = automatic
Forget all that manly man garbage, use what's best for the particular application.
*I've never driven an automatic with flappy paddle manual shifting and have limited experience driving my wife's automatic w/manual shift mode. These may be a better option, or perhaps just a good compromise, compared to a traditional manual.
4l80e is the strongest of the trannys you mentioned, and the 4l60e is stronger than the 700r4. The 60e and 80e will require either a manual valve body or a computer to shift. The newer versions of those will have a one bolt difference (top bolt) than the 700r4.
BTW, Art Carr = Winters = Speedway, they are all the same shifter.
BTW, Art Carr = Winters = Speedway, they are all the same shifter.
- Location
- Riverton, UT
X4 Learn with a stick and then use a manual shift kit with an automatic and you are way ahead of everyone else.
Tacoma
Et incurventur ante non
- Location
- far enough away
Winters is the manufacturer. Friend of mine used to work for them, I asked him to verify back when that was an argument in certain circles
The 4L80e is a pig, as in heavy, but properly thought of as a TH400 with O/D. I love mine. As trouble-free as my 400s were, as long as there's fluid and it's kept cool, they work great. I will say that the 4L80e is designed to be a soft-shifting baby, so if you rebuild one, address that.
Soft shifts= slippy shifts = wearing out clutches.redrussell
Active Member
Ok so what does the cost of going to say a 4l60 or 4l80 with the manual shift valve body, proper cooling etc Cost? Anyone in RME run a shop that does good work or makes deals? I have a T350 but it needs rebuilt(No big deal, I can do it). I would like the extra gear though so I can drive my Jeep around like I plan to and still run low enough gears to get the reduction I want. Art Carr shifters are about $200 from my web search, is that about right or is there a better deal else where?
- Location
- The Land Northward (Bountiful), Utah
I like an auto for finesse in really technical rock crawling.
But an auto will suck up some power at the torque converter. So for mixed wheeling, with my stock I6 my Jeep is a manual. It's a night and day difference at the dunes driving similar jeeps back to back: one with an aw4 one with a nv3500.
No kid ever pretends to drive an automatic (or cvt "shudder") race car
Grabbing gears is fun!
But an auto will suck up some power at the torque converter. So for mixed wheeling, with my stock I6 my Jeep is a manual. It's a night and day difference at the dunes driving similar jeeps back to back: one with an aw4 one with a nv3500.
No kid ever pretends to drive an automatic (or cvt "shudder") race car
Grabbing gears is fun!
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THSDragoon
I have a new Trooper :D
- Location
- Orem Utah
i agree entirely. though my preference is manual, because that's what i learned on. My old Isuzu Trooper was a manual, and in comparing it to the Honda CRV I have now, I would go back to manual in a heart beat. I felt it was funner to use as a DD, I got more enjoyment out of going out into the woods and driving trails like Forest Lake, and I just felt more in control of the vehicle.
As for flappy paddle gear boxes, the last time I drove one on road, I hated it with a passion. I'm not sure if it was just the way Subaru made it, or what, but it was NOT a very fun car to drive. They kept getting in the way of my steering, there was limited room behind the wheel (I like my fingers to have room when I drive), and the car still automatically shifted for me anyway. So I would caution to stay away from them with off road use, as I'm sure many here would also advise.
redrussell
Active Member
Ok I wanted to keep picking your brains, technically I should start a new thread but I will just stay in here to keep the forum cleaner. I am going to run my SM465 just until I can find and build and auto. Since I will be loosing my low end gear I have been debating, rebuild my D300 with low gears and buy and adapter or do a doubler like 203/205? I have all of those transfer cases and a 208 as well. What would suggestions be for that? A doubler would give me a 4:1 overall low range if my math and understanding of gearing is correct. It would also give me the option of using the 205's 2.1:1 range as well right? I am running an mildly built(400hp) injected 350 so power I don't have a shortage of power but right pedal isn't always the answer. What are your thoughts, suggestions and experiences? I am trying to keep cost in mind here as well, a 4:1 D300 kit and rebuild is like $800 plus the adapter to whatever trans I use. I haven't done the research on the doubler yet.
I love the manual vs auto great debate, been a few years. I was a stick guy for many, many years. Bragging about "crawling" that last line was the best! 100:1 ratio was killer bragging rights. Then I switched to a 454 with a TH400. As mentioned above several times, maneuvering and not stalling were key. But, hitting the throttle with a big motor and have the tranny shift through the gears without topping out on rpms, ya that is for me
Humm... not going to agree with the "constantly" word here. Ran a D300 behind the 454 for years without breaking it, and... I don't drive carefully
Humm... not going to agree with the "constantly" word here. Ran a D300 behind the 454 for years without breaking it, and... I don't drive carefully
X2 on this. Been running my Dana 300 for years with no issues. I don't have a high hp motor, but am running a blackbox-i in front of it so it sees a lot more torque than it normally would. Plenty of broken axles shafts and drivelines but never the 300.
Let's address the first problem
Allowing a spouse to participate (drive if desired) is the best thing you can do to increase enjoyment of wheeling. Just remember to take it easy and don't pressure her into doing something she doesn't want to.
That said, we switched from manual to auto with a v8 swap and it's been a good move.