body lifts hate?! open for discussion

[Thspittingllama]

I still dont understand everyones HATE for body lifts. Now that said..... theyre are limits and trade offs with one sure. I have been runnng a 2'' body lift on my pickup with 33/12.5's for years! I wouldn't recoment anything bigger though for sure! When i did it, i needed clearence to fit a set that was given to me for free! i was broke and needed a cheap fix. i found the 2'' body lift for $80 plus shipping from 4wheel parts. it was easy to install and did the job i needed. I would do it again honestly! i have not lost anything that i have missed by putting this lift on! I run this truck as an everyday driver and with the removed sway bars and body lift, i can still get off the I15n to 215w off ramp at 75mph without feeling sketched out! what more really do you need for drivability? honestly? i have also never had any creaks or clunks from it either. maybe because it was installed right idk?, and my lift came with a new gas filler neck and brackets to raise my front bumper.

Now although the suspention is limited to the stock flex and capabilitys, its tough as nails, and takes a beating like a redheaded stepchild! (except for the idler arms, THEY SUCK) Now dont get me wrong a properly set up suspention system is ideal, but rome wasnt built in a day. and once i get the lift i really want it will come off. But when on a budget like me, you want to get the most bang for the buck! And still have a capable machine. Now trimming and massaging to fit is anouther way to do it, and steve did an amazing job on his! but most peaple just arent comfortable doing that themselves, or at all really. maye because once its done there's almost no going back, idk. Im not against that either, but it looked like alot of work, and you need acces to a welder. Not to say that a body lift is always the right answer or anything, but don't count them out either! They do have a place on the trail, dont believe me?.... then lets go wheelin! lol If you want to hate any type of lift, id say point and laugh at the bracket lifts! those are the real wrong way to do's. hahaha. In my opinion of capability and proformance of a trail rig in rough order of importance is.....

1. ground clearence, even an ich helps, but this increase is all but useless at a certain point where othe vehicle limitations prohibit any further gain.
2. tires, this can be a dual purpose gain of not only traction but ground clearence.
3. LOCKERS!!!!!!! even if its just a cheep spooly in the front only. (my friend had this in his 4runner in high scool and went every where)I went with a selectable in the rear and a true trac in the front, because it is my everyday driver. but this is one of the biggest jumps in capability! the sooner you can do it the better.
4. gears, not only in the diffs, but the transfercase as well.
5. Armor, with the ability to get into uglier places the danger of rock rash and tril damage greatly increases! (obviously)
6. then suspention!
7. power to take it to a whole new level.

I believe this to be the ideal way to get the greatest increases at every step. Nocking out the cheapest first, and progressively getting more expensive. I think a locked, armor'd, and geared truck on stock suspention would be way more capable than a truck with only suspention. and in most cases the first can be done for the same cost as the second, if not cheaper.

(sorry for the rant) im really board at work today!

 

[sixstringsteve]

sounds like you already have your mind made up.

 

[Caleb]

I think you nailed it spot on about body lifts:

i was broke and needed a cheap fix

If all you're looking for is more clearance, then sure. They are ugly and put lots more stress on your body mounts. I've seen many body mounts torn off due to body lifts. Sorry, I think they are hacktastic at best. IMO, the max that should ever be considered is maybe a 1" to give yourself more clearance for your drivetrain (tummy tucks, etc)...that's after you've got a quality suspension lift already. Even then, a 1" is still pushing it.

 

[Kevin B.]

I've never run one. As I mentioned in the other thread, I'd consider a 1" lift for clearance purposes, but I don't think I'd want to go bigger than that.

I disagree with your build order, though. I think tires and recovery gear should be first if you don't already have suitable ATs or something on, followed in short order by armor.

 

[Thspittingllama]

STEVE; lol kinda, but alot can be learned from a friendly debate. If im missing something id like to know, leRmDing is fun.

 

[sixstringsteve]

Well, I don't want to rain on your parade. It sounds like I'm not going to convince you that they're bad, and you're never going to convince me that they're worth it. But since you asked...

I hate body lifts because the disadvantages far outweigh the advantages. The ONLY benefits you get from a body lift are:
- it looks taller for cheap (which isn't a benefit to me)
- you can fit taller tires without a suspension lift
- sometimes you can tuck trannies/gas tanks, etc up higher out of the way with a body lift

A body lift is not the only way to achieve these benefits. There are MUCH better ways, and many are cheaper than a body lift. I can fit 35's on my rig with zero lift and zero body lift. It took a little more work than a body lift, but it was cheaper and a far better solution for me. Just because a solution is cheap and easy doesn't mean it's the best.

I installed a body lift on my first rig (before I knew any better) and my second rig came with one already installed. IN the 10+ rigs since then, I've stayed far away from them. I've installed body lifts for friends, and every time I remind myself that I'll never do it myself. I've seen accidents with rigs with body lifts and that was enough to convince me not to run one. I've seen guys running around in rigs that had the bolts bend and the body shift. The longer those bolts that hold your body on, the less strength they have.

If they're so great, why are you removing them once you get your suspension lift?

Just because I hate body lifts doesn't mean I think less of someone else who chooses to install one. I think you're a cool dude and I like your build. Body lifts just aren't for me; I can achieve any benefit a body lift provides without running one.

 

[reddman]

A saw and an hour trimming fenders is cheaper and better than any/every body lift. Lifting the body in no way affords you a bit of ground clearance under anything that matters, but it does raise your COG without benefit, it can lead to body mount failure or ripping chunks of the body out around the mounts, forces you to pull bolts that are often rusted in place which destroys the integrity of the female threads, and back to the root of the problem, zero ground clearance or performance gain. No real gains + costing you ~$100 + clear and inarguable downsides ≠ the wisest first modification to your rig.

Bigger tires and fender trimming is the logical first step in my mind. There is a ground clearance gain, the absolute smallest possible increase of COG height, likely traction improvements, and it's the cheapest solution to the bigger rubber dilemma. Body lifts absolutely cannot improve performance, and can only be a detriment to it. Tires and trimming can. It's cut and dry in my book. But then, I've always valued performance gains over all else.



If it doesn't help you go faster, stop more quickly, or maneuver better, get that crap off your ride!

 

[Cherokeester]

This is the only body lift I would use. And to the op, please punctuate or at least put some spaces in your post so I can read it.

 

[Yota]

i'm with cherokeester, that's the only body lift I'd go with! go big or go home!

 

[Kevin B.]

The ratchet strap is a nice touch.

 

[Omgbecki]

I personally think everything has an advantage and disadvantage. I too have seen bodies shift and bolts break but then I also see what they are doing with that vehicle and it's no wonder why they did. We can't really use breakage as a deterrent for not using these lifts we all have seen one way or another way more expensive parts (coil overs, links, axles ect....) break. If we were worried about things breaking we wouldn't be in this sport.

Now I'm a huge fan of low CoG. I always get a kick out of seeing this one green toyota running 35's (pointing at steve) but some vehicles are easier to trim then others. No offense but ifs vehicles stock just flat out don't flex. I know this topic was started and continued mainly by toyota guys but you would have to cut up a tj a lot to get that same tires size and take in consideration of the flex.

Right now I'm in a situation where I am debating a body lift also. My front flexes so much that my front tires rub on the inside of my fender. The real problem is that they are getting chewed up by where the fender and fender flare mate. Yes there are other options (longer bump stops) but what's the point in that? I can't trim enough of this material nor do I have the skills or resources (another issue some have with trimming). Another option is higher fenders (expensive) or a puck lift. This is the idea I'm leaning towards mainly because I have to by new shocks anyways.

All in all, everything has ups and downs. Anything can break. Just do it right and be safe.

 

[sixstringsteve]

have you ever seen a stock body bolt break? I haven't.


IFS vehicles flex, they just don't droop like solid axle rigs do. My tacoma has more updtravel than any other rig I've owned. I've trimmed my solid axle toyotas, samurais, and sidekicks before as well. I can't speak for TJs, but I found the IFS rigs were tougher to get decent clearance on than the solid axle rigs.

 

[Thspittingllama]

This is the only body lift I would use. And to the op, please punctuate or at least put some spaces in your post so I can read it.

epic!

 

[Thspittingllama]

Thanks for the reply. this is kinda fun. The point of the body lift in my example was to get bigger tires on the rig, going from stock size to 33/12.5's. The difference in size of tire that could be fit is where the increased ground clearence came. thus = a benifit to capability of the rig.

Now as far a center of gravity.... this is an argument I have never quite understood. Maybe im not understanding this right, idk. but as I understand the majority of the weight of a typical vehicle i held at the frame rails where the motor trans ect is mounted. The bodys of most vehicle's do not carry as much weight in comparison by any means. that being said The best way for a low center of gravity is to keep the frame low. with out sacrafising ground clearence. AKA win to steeve with big tires and choping.

Now whith a body lift you are only raising the body off of the frame, and chassis. this of coarse to fit said tires for the better ground clearence. this gains the SAME benifit of clerence as choping fenders. however there would now be a slightly higher center of gravity in comparison with the chop to fit due to the body now sitting a few inches higher.

However with a suspention lift you are not only lifting the frame to achieve tire clearence but the cab still moves with it! but now with the cab sitting at the same height as the body lifted truck, the suspention lifted trucks frame is also higher. So wouldnt that actually make the worst center of gravity go to the suspention lifted truck?

this is what im talking about...

View attachment 74071

 

[Thspittingllama]

If they're so great, why are you removing them once you get your suspension lift?

Just because I hate body lifts doesn't mean I think less of someone else who chooses to install one. I think you're a cool dude and I like your build. Body lifts just aren't for me; I can achieve any benefit a body lift provides without running one.

I have plans to remove the lift after my suspention lift because I have no desire to be the tallest truck on the trail. I want only to be as big as nessasay for my suspention and tire combo to work properly. however I do plan to keep it around for a future belly flatening. if i ever get the motivation of coarse. lol

We still need to get together on one of these wheelin trips! As soon as im back together Im going to tag along on one of your rubicon shake downs.

 

[reddman]

Thanks for the reply. this is kinda fun. The point of the body lift in my example was to get bigger tires on the rig, going from stock size to 33/12.5's. The difference in size of tire that could be fit is where the increased ground clearence came. thus = a benifit to capability of the rig.

This is where I take issue. Like you said, the tires alone are responsible for the gain in ground clearance. There are two schools of thought on how to fit those bigger tires, and one raises your COG more than the other, increases stresses on certain compontents, and costs some money. The other accomplishes the same ground clearance gain, with less undesirable increase in COG height, and is practically free.

Now as far a center of gravity.... this is an argument I have never quite understood. Maybe im not understanding this right, idk. but as I understand the majority of the weight of a typical vehicle i held at the frame rails where the motor trans ect is mounted. The bodys of most vehicle's do not carry as much weight in comparison by any means. that being said The best way for a low center of gravity is to keep the frame low. with out sacrafising ground clearence. AKA win to steeve with big tires and choping.

The body and everything mounted on, or in it, is a substantial amount of weight. An LS V8 weighs in at less than 400#, and a typical trans and T-case combo is only going to weigh in at 200-300#. You and three adult passengers almost certainly outweigh your sprung powertrain, plus your body likely weighs in well over 1000#, especially with glass, doors, seats, tools, coolers, spare tires, etc. I would contend that your body and everything in/on it likely weighs in right around, if not over what your frame/motor/trans/T-case weigh. IMO it's hardly insignificant.

Now whith a body lift you are only raising the body off of the frame, and chassis. this of coarse to fit said tires for the better ground clearence. this gains the SAME benifit of clerence as choping fenders. however there would now be a slightly higher center of gravity in comparison with the chop to fit due to the body now sitting a few inches higher.

However with a suspention lift you are not only lifting the frame to achieve tire clearence but the cab still moves with it! but now with the cab sitting at the same height as the body lifted truck, the suspention lifted trucks frame is also higher. So wouldnt that actually make the worst center of gravity go to the suspention lifted truck?

Totally agreed on that one. All lift should be avoided in my book, just trim more! :greg:

And just to clarify, I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm simply trying to state my case as I believe to be most true and accurate for optimal performance.

 

[reddman]

This is just a general comparison, but this is a general discussion.

 

[Thspittingllama]

I like that! that's pretty much what i was trying to say. and more! thanks

 

[Omgbecki]

I admit I am envious of people who can get away with trimming. If they had the products they have now for low CoG when I got my lift I would have went that route instead but now it's just not cost effective to redo everything. I was raised on the K.I.S.S. concept.

I have to say though I (without sounding weird) I love steve's passion about the body lift concept. I have physically watched him talk against them, it's not a "you're an idiot for wanting to do that or, having it" he honestly seems more concerned about the person. I respect that.

Sometimes you have to work with what you have. And sometimes it's hard to find anyone that will offer more then just their opinion about it. I personally don't like body lifts, nor do I like the puck spacer I don't want to be any taller then I am now but it don't seem that I have many options.

To thespittingllama: a big part of this concept that's getting thrown around but over overshadowed is leverage. You are correct about lifts affecting CoG also but the whole vehicle rolls as one solid unit with the body lift it adds additional leverage on the body bolts which makes them more prone to breaking. With a lift you have more of a chance of rolling. My tj with it's 4in lift and no swsy bar makes driving sketchy at best I know that a body lift would just multiply the issue. Trimming is by far the safest route but not always the most economical and naturally the most economical is almost always not safe. All I can say be careful and if a bolt or so breaks prepare for a couple told you so. But I'm sure those same people would be offering a hand to help.

 

[Marsh99]

I think body lifts are fine if used for logical reasons.

Good reasons:engine swap, flat belly, or a little more clearance (1in).

Bad reasons:cheap lift and fit big tires.
I just think if you can't afford a suspension lift how are you going to be able to re-gear axles for the bigger tires?
Why do need bigger tires?
Body lifts don't add any flex.
With those to added up: If you can't afford the "expensive stuff" now why are you going to make your truck get worse mpg by lifting it and adding bigger tires with no axle re-gear?
Plus there are to many other cheap, more effective ways to do suspension on toyota's.
63 chevy's and Ruf leafs to the front. If it is ifs 63 chevy's and BJ spacers.

My vote would be to keep the stock stock suspension. Throw on some bfg Km2's that will fit. Invest in parts you won't have to re-do in the future like dual t-cases, or rear locker.