Bought a home, seller didn't disclose

Troop92

Well-Known Member
Location
Layton, UT
I'm typically not one to create posts, but this one has me down... Wife and I purchased our current home in November. Basically our dream layout minus my third car garage... Great area, good schools.

Diring the due diligence process, we were diligent (ha!) in asking questions, ensuring a smooth and surprise-free experience. This is our second home, so we were better equipped to understand and ask the right questions. Irritatingly, since then have gone sideways with things the seller definitely knew and did not disclose. Things that will no doubt be expensive and be a major headache.

Anyone have experience with anything like this? Is the only recourse small claims? I know in Utah it can, at times, be considered fraud to cover up issues during a home sale. Thoughts?
 

Pike2350

Registered User
Location
Salt Lake City
What sort of things? I believe if they are things inside the list the address required to sign as part of the contract (hud 1 I think) it could be considered a crime. If it's not part of the contract list(lead paint, asbestos, etc) I believe the only recourse is small claims. Though could contact the sellers agent as well and make a big fuss..... although that likely won't get anywhere either.
 

zmotorsports

Hardcore Gearhead
Vendor
Location
West Haven, UT
I ran into a similar situation when we bought our dream home in December 2016. The house itself however is a quality built home and no issues with the home itself and it was barely 3 years old. My issues were with anything, and I mean anything, that the original owners touched. The guy half-assed EVERYTHING he touched which required nearly two years to repair, replace or completely redo. Anything in the attached garage he did I removed and I basically tore the entire yard out and started over beginning with the roof drainage that he dumped right at the foundation. Who the hell dumps all of their roof water directly at the foundation and NOT into a drainage system. I ended up digging up the entire yard to install dry wells in addition to putting a new yard in while I was having my shop built.

I was told my the realtor that there really wasn't any recourse seeing as how we did buy the house as is and they didn't disclose the details about the yard and drainage because they weren't specifically on the disclosure questionnaire.

Luckily mine wasn't expensive per se but it was definitely time consuming and a LOT of manual labor to get it where I wanted it.

We had an issue with one of the water heaters and even though we did have a home warranty for the first year they wouldn't cover it due to their loopholes so don't even get me started on home warranties and many not being worth the paper they're printed on.

Unfortunately in this day and age many people are less than up front with disclosing things. Integrity has definitely took a hit. Not everyone is like that though. My son and his fiancé just purchased a 10 year old home in Farr West that the owners were very honest and up front with them and made the whole home buying experience somewhat less stressful so there are still some good honest folks out there.

Sorry to hear you didn't buy from one of them.

I would still contact the realtor and do some serious investigating as people shouldn't get away Scott free from things like this.

Mike
 

BlackSheep

baaaaaaaaaad to the bone
Supporting Member
I feel you man. The house I'm currently in has some water issues in the basement. There is NO WAY the previous owner didn't find out about it during their 8 years living here. It really didn't come up as a major issue for me until this year (three years after I moved in) when we've had record rainfall and I've had a number of water intrusions into the basement. It really sucks. The house I sold to move here was just getting into great condition after I had lived there for 8 years and put a lot of time and money into it. Now I have to start over.

I don't think I'd be able to prove they knew about the water situation. that's the difficulty. It's just hard for me to grasp they didn't.
 

Troop92

Well-Known Member
Location
Layton, UT
Thanks for the responses, all. Apparently not an isolated thing. 1995 rambler with basement. Hidden Hollow area in Layton close to the Kays Creek trail. We are not the lowest point in the area by any means.

We did have an inspection, by the inspector recommended by our realtor whom I've known since grade school and trust completely. I've already told him to dump his guy, as he wasn't worth crap.

Your comments above are all in focus here. The previous owner looked at projects and said "yeah, I can do that" when they weren't qualified to even pick up the tool used to do do the project... Those things, however, I can deal with. Cosmetic crap is just that, cosmetic.

The two main issues we've had are with water. Of course we bought before there were many major water events (snow/rain) to observe.

1. They have a sunroom on the back of the house with insulated walls, windows, the works. Looks solid, but was built blocking the dryer vent and the combustion air for the furnace. Come to find it was originally a screened in porch (built by Champion long ago) that they bastardized with insulation panels, hardy board, etc. Leaks like a sieve from the roof and leaks between the structure and the house that lead to drywall damage inside. There's zero chance they didn't know it leaked, though I can give them a pass on the drywall as we didn't find damage/mold until we tore off their obnoxious olive green crown molding.

2. Basement had a sump pump in the furnace/laundry room and in the basement bath. Odd, again, as we weren't a low point and the house is raised slightly. Going back to asking questions, they disclosed they had water damage in the kitchen (other side of the house) from a leaky pipe, and in the basement from a ruptured sprinkler pipe. So we asked, through our realtor, why there were two sump pumps. We got a tale about how they lived in Sugar House (before building the house in 1995) and had issues there, and that these were just a precaution in the event of a flood, but hadn't ever been used since they lived there. We question that a few more times, they were insistent no issues. We took that and poured over the inspection notes and decided to do it.

Fast forward to yesterday evening, after all the rain we had Sunday, when I noted a whirring from the basement. Odd, I don't think I was doing laundry. It was the bathroom sump pump, clearly evacuating a decent amount of water. Told my wife, she commented how she though she'd heard something similar earlier in the day, and had forgot to mention when I got home. Suck. I had a moment of "oh no..." and ran to the other pump to find it brimming, float definitely up and nothing working. The floor in our basement family room, adjacent to the laundry, was squishy....

Now, I'm all about home (and vehicle) maintenance. When we moved in one of the first things I did was break out the ladder and clean gutters and make sure they had extensions to carry the water away from the foundation. Needless to say to find this was crushing. Now I'm just mad.

So that's that.... We do have a home warranty, bit as was mentioned have already found that to be somewhat of a joke. I told our my friend/realtor and he's pretty upset as well, he's going to look into what recourse, if any we have.

Heres to a new day. I'm at harbor freight currently, buying a manual evac pump to get some water out of the one sump before more rain forecast tomorrow....
 

Noahfecks

El Destructo!
I am not familiar with UT law but i will say that generally they signed a legal disclosure saying that they knew there were no problems and could be legally liable for damages that have occurred. The real question is; is it worth it to pursue legal action to recover your loss? Are you spending good money to get a judgement that you will never be able to recover? If it is something that can be fixed with some sweat equity, it's probably not worth it and you should cut your losses and just get to fixing it. If it's something that is going to lead to the eventual condemning of your home, document and research and go get yourself a good phallus in the mouth lawyer.
 

Herzog

somewhat damaged
Admin
Location
Wydaho
I've had some pretty fun issues with my home, but nothing that I couldn't take in stride, because after all, I only bought it for the property and the shop. X-D I saw it was going to have issues and knew I was going to have to fix things but I'm still surprised often.

As mentioned above, everything the guy built or worked on is a complete disaster, like scary stupid... The basement shower drain was butted up against the drain pipe and puttied. I have to tear that whole pan out to fix it, but the upstairs shower (made in 1979) is doing just fine. Things like that. Don't even get me started on his framing and drywall of that basement bathroom and the one room he "finished" down there. Oh man... but I saw that before I bought.

He disclosed that the city had replaced the water line after it burst a while ago. But he didn't say that they didn't run a new line all the way into the house. There was 3ft of old galvanized from the foundation to the new poly line. It burst and flooded the basement. Then a couple weeks later a root grew into the sewer line in the back yard, clogged and flooded the basement again. Luckily the flooding was minimal and I already had a majority of the old nasty carpet pulled out. But that crap happens, I can't blame that part on him... but I do think he knew that roots were in there and that it was cleared before. Would have been nice to know, but whatever.

Sorry to hear you are having issues man, it's never fun. Hopefully a good resolution comes out of it all.
 

Cody

Random Quote Generator
Supporting Member
Location
Gastown
Sorry about your issues with your home. I've had a few of those....like the home warranty I purchased not covering my washer/dryer because they were a stacked "combined" unit. I told them they were stacked on the phone, but they still came out and charged me $150 just to tell me that they wouldn't cover them because they were stacked. You could have just saved your guy the time and me $150 and just told me that over the phone.

If it's something that is going to lead to the eventual condemning of your home, document and research and go get yourself a good phallus in the mouth lawyer.

Just out of curiosity, why would a gay lawyer be preferable to a straight lawyer in this instance? Or, are you meaning a female lawyer? Same question I guess.
 

sawtooth4x4

Totally Awesome
I've found the home warranty isn't all its cracked up to be. WE had one for a few years with this house. They fixed our dishwasher 10 million times. Finally got tired of the $100 a service call and figured out I could have bought a hell of a nice dishwasher on my own by saving $1000 on service calls. They did fix my garage door (awesome). And my garage heater ( installed myself but screwed up some wiring). And fixed our old washer and dryer a few times.

I'm now waiting on the refrigerator to take a crap.

Buying a house is like buying a used car. You don't know what you get until you spend some time in it.

I figured out my house was built by idiots who couldn't read a square or tape measure when I started installing new wood floors. Nothing is square in my house. I redid a lot of electrical in my basement, because it looked like crap.

Not to mention our master bathroom. WTF were they thinking when they built it. I still need to redo that and all the carpet upstairs.

Home ownership, its a blast. But still better than an attached apartment, with Chinese neighbors slaughtering chickens above your apartment at 2 am.

But I digress.
 

mbryson

.......a few dollars more
Supporting Member
........
So that's that.... We do have a home warranty, bit as was mentioned have already found that to be somewhat of a joke. I told our my friend/realtor and he's pretty upset as well, he's going to look into what recourse, if any we have. ....





I just verified we had Landmark Home Warranty on our house. What a crock of shit deal that is. F*ck those folks

Sorry to hear you're having issues and the issues you are having are NOT insignificant. Hope things work out for you
 
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Houndoc

Registered User
Location
Grantsville
If the biggest issues are the blocked dryer vent, roof leak and a broken sump pump, I am guessing you will get nowhere.

They pump may or may not have been broken when you purchased and you would have no luck proving it was. With the sunroom, same thing I suppose- proving how long something leaked is hard to do.

Unfortunately being able to hold the inspector responsible is difficult. One of my employees purchased a home that turned out to have major settling problems (as in do something before starts to collapse.) Although all indications are that the problem existed before they purchased the home and that there was really no way the previous owners wouldn't have known, there is no way to prove that they did know and there was really no legal recourse against inspector or realtor.

Repairs are at $60,000 to date.
 

Troop92

Well-Known Member
Location
Layton, UT
If the biggest issues are the blocked dryer vent, roof leak and a broken sump pump, I am guessing you will get nowhere.

I'm more upset that they didn't just disclose issues. Just say "we've had grading issues but have done x to mitigate it." Don't weave a story about how it's preventative, never used, blah blah blah.

It'll be fine, and as Noahfecks mentioned, just time and sweat equity that I was already low on. I expected some, but not this.

Warranty place sending someone to repair/replace the pump. I'll tear up flooring this evening to dry things out (cheap laminate stick down). Then I'll get someone out to determine grade and why there's water in the first place.

As to recourse/action, I'll document it all. Photo, video, etc. We'll see.
 

SLC97SR5

IDIesel
Location
Davis County
The roof MAY be warrantied by the inspector. Ours carried a 1 year warranty to not leak based on their inspection and determination that the roof was sound.

Also, the Zoeller M53 pumps are nice units....should you get a chance to spec a new pump.
 

Tonkaman

Well-Known Member
Location
West Jordan
Thanks for the responses, all. Apparently not an isolated thing. 1995 rambler with basement. Hidden Hollow area in Layton close to the Kays Creek trail. We are not the lowest point in the area by any means.

We did have an inspection, by the inspector recommended by our realtor whom I've known since grade school and trust completely. I've already told him to dump his guy, as he wasn't worth crap.

Your comments above are all in focus here. The previous owner looked at projects and said "yeah, I can do that" when they weren't qualified to even pick up the tool used to do do the project... Those things, however, I can deal with. Cosmetic crap is just that, cosmetic.

The two main issues we've had are with water. Of course we bought before there were many major water events (snow/rain) to observe.

1. They have a sunroom on the back of the house with insulated walls, windows, the works. Looks solid, but was built blocking the dryer vent and the combustion air for the furnace. Come to find it was originally a screened in porch (built by Champion long ago) that they bastardized with insulation panels, hardy board, etc. Leaks like a sieve from the roof and leaks between the structure and the house that lead to drywall damage inside. There's zero chance they didn't know it leaked, though I can give them a pass on the drywall as we didn't find damage/mold until we tore off their obnoxious olive green crown molding.

2. Basement had a sump pump in the furnace/laundry room and in the basement bath. Odd, again, as we weren't a low point and the house is raised slightly. Going back to asking questions, they disclosed they had water damage in the kitchen (other side of the house) from a leaky pipe, and in the basement from a ruptured sprinkler pipe. So we asked, through our realtor, why there were two sump pumps. We got a tale about how they lived in Sugar House (before building the house in 1995) and had issues there, and that these were just a precaution in the event of a flood, but hadn't ever been used since they lived there. We question that a few more times, they were insistent no issues. We took that and poured over the inspection notes and decided to do it.

Fast forward to yesterday evening, after all the rain we had Sunday, when I noted a whirring from the basement. Odd, I don't think I was doing laundry. It was the bathroom sump pump, clearly evacuating a decent amount of water. Told my wife, she commented how she though she'd heard something similar earlier in the day, and had forgot to mention when I got home. Suck. I had a moment of "oh no..." and ran to the other pump to find it brimming, float definitely up and nothing working. The floor in our basement family room, adjacent to the laundry, was squishy....

Now, I'm all about home (and vehicle) maintenance. When we moved in one of the first things I did was break out the ladder and clean gutters and make sure they had extensions to carry the water away from the foundation. Needless to say to find this was crushing. Now I'm just mad.

So that's that.... We do have a home warranty, bit as was mentioned have already found that to be somewhat of a joke. I told our my friend/realtor and he's pretty upset as well, he's going to look into what recourse, if any we have.

Heres to a new day. I'm at harbor freight currently, buying a manual evac pump to get some water out of the one sump before more rain forecast tomorrow....

If the sunroom was built without a building permit, that’s your angle to persue in court. I’ve heard if guys losing entire properties to building permit technicalities. The crappy part is now you are also liable to the next buyer should you ever sell...
 

jsudar

Well-Known Member
Location
Cedar Hills
My wife has been a realtor for fifteen years and we run in to this a lot.
There is a spot on the Real Estate Purchase Contract (REPC) where sellers are supposed to disclose current or past problems with the home they are aware of. Sometimes stuff gets forgotten, sometimes it's purposely left out (dishonesty), sometimes people are so unaware of their surroundings they don't know what a problem actually is and sometimes there are crappy real estate agents who don't explain to their clients what actually needs to be documented in that portion of the REPC.
So, legally, yes they had an obligation to disclose problems with the home, but in order to pursue legal action you have to prove that they were aware of the problem and purposefully did not disclose it in the contract. This is tough to do.
Problem size is relative too. Some people's big problems are only a minor irritation to other people, so they may have not thought it neccessary to disclose it.
I had a similar thing happen with the last house we bought. After the deal was closed, the seller left a note in the kitchen drawer with a laundry list of fairly serious problems which all should have been disclosed in the REPC and had not been. The note proved they were aware of the problems, so we probably could have sued and won, but all said and done, it was not worth the hassle. It was cheaper and more timely to fix it myself.
In the end, it will probably be cheaper and quicker for you to take care of it yourself, even though maybe you could take legal action and maybe win. This sucks. I have felt your pain and I know where your coming from, but this is the world we live in.
 
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ID Bronco

Registered User
Location
Idaho Falls, ID
I feel bad for you and the situation.

We are going to list our home pretty soon, we are doing some TLC on it first, but it is a home built in 1957. When I sell this house or if I buy a home that is older than most everyone on this board I would expect goofy things, problems, and there is no way I could forsee all of those possibilities. I want to be honest about it. But I could see someone thinking I'm a jerk down the road because something goes wrong. Do I disclose that I had a basement leak 13 years ago, dug out the foundation, re coated it, re graded, installed rain gutters and so on? It hasn't leaked in 13 years, I believe I can look at that as a case closed kind of thing. I fixed it the best I could, and it worked. If we had a 100 year snowfall and a warm spring I'm sure it could leak somewhere. Who knows. Where's the line? Obviously if a roof is leaking and it's just a dry few weeks and I don't tell them, that's wrong.
 

Caleb

Well-Known Member
Location
Riverton
The only thing required by law in Utah is if it was built prior to 1978, you have to disclose there may be lead paint (that's a federal law) and specifically for Utah, you only have to disclose if there have been "use, storage, or manufacture of methamphetamines" in the house. As mentioned, usually the listing agent will have their clients fill out a disclosure form but they aren't required by law to disclose anything else. However, the caveat with this is if they say there has never been a water leak knowing there really has, then this is fraud. If they say there's been no leaks and there has but they didn't know, then you're SOL. If there is no conversations about water leaks, they aren't required by law to disclose it.
 
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