DCRC ‘20 - Input needed

[POR]

I thought more on jonny quests free Saturday participation idea.. why not throw an rti ramp out in parking lot for the local wheelers to play on, Maybe offer up a free ramp champ trophy or shirt.. do it after the the comp on friday night.. im sure yheres a party there. I can see competitors tow rigs getting involved hahaha

 

[maveric]

I like the idea of adopting the Werock rules and classes. The OSRC class rules were always kind of confusing. The bonus/penalty's especially.
I think the Werock classes SC/SB/SA will keep some of the newer/less built rigs in with similar rigs.
For example, my 46 flatty is running a toy frame and axles. Still uses the factory spring hangers, factory toyota steering. It is still (in my opinion) a stock class rig. However, since it doesn't have the OEM frame, at minimum, it pushed me into Legend, but more accurately, into Promod.
Under the Werock rules, it would be a SC rig.
Another example is my son's toyota. Rich allowed him to run the stock class the last 2 years, based on his experience level (13 last year with about 4 hours seat time in the truck). He is a VERY new driver, so a beginner class is where he belongs. The truck however, having a flatbed, cut fenders and radiator support, and no windshield would put him in trail buggy.
I feel there needs to be an entry level class. The SC/SB/SA classes allow that.

I also didn't like the idea of the JK class. Nothing personal against them, but they should run with the stock or the legend class.

All this being said, I don't really have a problem with changing classes or keeping them the same. Delta has always been the "fun, family oriented" comp that we go to. Had a blast the first year we went, and have been back every year since.
I do like the laid back atmosphere vs the pro comps, where some competitors take the fun out it.

 

[Jinx]

I like the idea of adopting the Werock rules and classes. The OSRC class rules were always kind of confusing. The bonus/penalty's especially.
I think the Werock classes SC/SB/SA will keep some of the newer/less built rigs in with similar rigs.
For example, my 46 flatty is running a toy frame and axles. Still uses the factory spring hangers, factory toyota steering. It is still (in my opinion) a stock class rig. However, since it doesn't have the OEM frame, at minimum, it pushed me into Legend, but more accurately, into Promod.
Under the Werock rules, it would be a SC rig.
Another example is my son's toyota. Rich allowed him to run the stock class the last 2 years, based on his experience level (13 last year with about 4 hours seat time in the truck). He is a VERY new driver, so a beginner class is where he belongs. The truck however, having a flatbed, cut fenders and radiator support, and no windshield would put him in trail buggy.
I feel there needs to be an entry level class. The SC/SB/SA classes allow that.

I also didn't like the idea of the JK class. Nothing personal against them, but they should run with the stock or the legend class.

All this being said, I don't really have a problem with changing classes or keeping them the same. Delta has always been the "fun, family oriented" comp that we go to. Had a blast the first year we went, and have been back every year since.
I do like the laid back atmosphere vs the pro comps, where some competitors take the fun out it.

I was hoping you would chime in. As a long participating family, I think your input is valuable.

The only thing to consider with a JK class it would be "safe" place for JK folks to jump in and try. Where the vehicles are so close that it comes down to strategy and skill.

Watching Johnny Quest two years ago jump into a pretty set up TJ and be really competive on courses that if he was in a JK he would not have been, opens the door to having a class and courses set up let the competitors be sucessful and have a good time. Similar reasoning to why they have different courses for unlimiteds and anyone else...

If all there were was unlimited courses not a lot of people would come and play.

 

[N-Smooth]

The JK class has always been open, just not enough people interested. ‘15 was the last year they did it and there were only 3 competitors. If they come out, there’ll be a class for them.

 

[maveric]

Again, I'm not bashing the JK's, but what makes them any different than something like a Tacoma class? Or a Cherokee class? If I remember right, they ran the stock lines anyway. Are there too many stock vehicles that we need to make another class? Would they fall under the SC class?

 

[maveric]

I was hoping you would chime in. As a long participating family, I think your input is valuable.

The only thing to consider with a JK class it would be "safe" place for JK folks to jump in and try. Where the vehicles are so close that it comes down to strategy and skill.

Watching Johnny Quest two years ago jump into a pretty set up TJ and be really competive on courses that if he was in a JK he would not have been, opens the door to having a class and courses set up let the competitors be sucessful and have a good time. Similar reasoning to why they have different courses for unlimiteds and anyone else...

If all there were was unlimited courses not a lot of people would come and play.

I agree there needs to be an entry level class. Just not make or model specific. The Ftoy class was set up this way, and early on, I felt that if its not an ftoy, it doesn't belong in the class. However, as many of the group pointed out, just because it didn't have a "ftoy" chassis, didn't mean it wasn't built the same. I think this same logic applies here. A 4 dr JK on 35's with armor and a lift isn't much different than a extended cab long box Toyota on 35's. It is really going to come down to the driver knowing the vehicle...especially on the stock lines.
I think the implementation of the SA/B/C classes will allow the seperation needed.

 

[Johnny Quest]

like any vehicle competition, the vehicle you start with is as an important factor as the build and the ability of the driver/spotter. i don't think JKs should be treated differently. Just go off the rule book, and wherever it fits, it fits

 

[Jinx]

I think the implementation of the SA/B/C classes will allow the seperation needed.

Ok, I finally had a minute to stumble through the we-rock rules and just a couple of thoughts for people to consider if comparing to OSRC.

Disclaimer: Please take into account that I only had time to breeze through things so I might have something wrong. If I have just take a min and point our where I have misread. I really don't have a huge dog in this fight, I just like the event for the excuse to play and see old friends and I like the idea of getting new friends involved.

1- it is a pretty far stretch to go from bring what you have, lets put similar rigs in similar classes, and have a good time OSRC to the suggested We Rock anything that runs a 40" tire is same a single seat rear engine buggy... (refering to the jump from sportsman c to b)
A- So every trail rig that is on 40's will either need to find some 37"s to run or compete on course designed for a single seat buggy...
i- Am I reading that right?
ii- Every full bodied JK, LJ, TJ, YJ, CJ etc. by definition would be in the same class a single seat buggy, just because they run 40's?

2- Again looking at why OSRC is so much fun dates back to when everyone was sick of the Uroc, werock, XRRA, etc phone book thick rule books and just wanted a chance to see old friends and goof off for weekend. Low key, have fun, try not to destroy your stuff...
A- Are we really asking people to ditch their OEM seat belts and install a 4 point or better restraint system complete with window nets?
ii- Rock Race yes, I see that, but chasing cones? not so much...

3- I will get a hard time for this because I used to compete and have a ton of respect for the guys that still do, but fellas... WE-Rock has a full schedule of events during the year for you guys. We love to watch your rigs do what you do, we love that you bring them to OSRC for us to see them there, but lets not make OSRC into another Full Competition event.
A- Put similar rigs together on courses that will have a good time without completely destroying things. (Yes damage is part of what we do, but I think everyone gets the difference)
B- A full bodied rig is definitely different than a buggy, where the driver doesn't worry about body damage. Any driver who drives his full body rig like a buggy without concern for body damage is welcome to run with the buggies.
i- (thinking of Robbie's old toyota, technically stock, be he and olly would usually win the next class up because of there ability to drive that rig and the "not worried about damage" concern level )

4- Thinking of Maveric's son running stock class two years ago. It was perfect example of what OSRC is about. Yes, his rig should have been in a different class, but when the drivers level of experience in combination with rig made it where he could have a good time in the class he ran and had everyone cheering for him. (He wasn't running a way from everyone else on the courses or sandbagging for chance to win a whooping $400.. )
A- Realistically (by the rule book) Brian's full bodied YJ with the longarm linked rear suspension should not of have been in stock class either but those courses were where his rig was competitive and challenged on without tearing it apart on the legends courses. Didn't he take 2nd in 2018?
B- Based on this idea, I would love to get my wife driving her CJ7 (more of a legends ride) in the stock courses, just for her to have fun. If anyone really objected, I would offer that if she actually placed/won, we would pass on the prize money if she could keep the trophy/bragging rights.

Sorry for the novel, but if you are looking for input on ideas to keep the event fun and growing, here are my .02 worth...

 

[skippy]

Everybody talks about how Werocks rule book is so thick and strict, Old school has always had more drama and more strict rules than WeRock has surrounding classes and which rig belongs where. If you want your rig to run a certain class that it doesnt fit in get ahold of Big Rich and plead your case.

WeRock has a way more grassroots feel to it than Old School did the last 4 or 5 years that Craig ran it. I got involved in WeRock in 2015 so I cant comment on how it was before then.

 

[N-Smooth]

Big surprise here but I agree with Ryan. Delta has always been more strict about rules than any WERock event that I’ve ever been to. Also, I’ve encountered way more drama about who belongs in which class and fighting about rules at Delta than I’ve ever witnessed at a WERock event. Keep in mind we do a handful of WERock events a year so I have a solid sample size.

I know people always say Delta is a “for fun” event and not serious but that has not been my experience over the last 6 years of competing there. I absolutely love the event but I think people need to come to terms with that and if there are changes that need to be made maybe we can work on that.

I’m still not against having a stock class and possibly even a beginner class and I’ve made those suggestions to Big.

 

[N-Smooth]

Also I’d really suggest you guys actually come to a WERock event and see what it’s like. Everybody seems to have an opinion about it but I haven’t seen you guys at a WERock event in the last 5 years...

 

[Jinx]

I knew you two would chime in and you two are a big part of the comp crew that I respect a lot.

Any thoughts on anything that runs 40's should be on the same course as a single seat rear engine buggy? or the seat belt/window net drama?

 

[N-Smooth]

I knew you two would chime in and you two are a big part of the comp crew that I respect a lot.

Any thoughts on anything that runs 40's should be on the same course as a single seat rear engine buggy? or the seat belt/window net drama?

My thoughts are that we have a stock class that follows the same rules that they’ve had in Delta for years. I don’t expect everybody to want to be in Sportsman classes but it should definitely cater to a bunch of people.

 

[Johnny Quest]

turn DCRC stock into WERock StockMod, and create a "Stock A.F." class.

Done.

 

[Jinx]

turn DCRC stock into WERock StockMod, and create a "Stock A.F." class.

Done.

Thoughts on Window nets and seat belts?

please explain Stock A.F. class, I am not sure I get it...

 

[Johnny Quest]

nets and harnesses would be encouraged, but not mandatory.

Stock A.F. aka "stock as f@*&" would be a daily driver/weekend wheeler class. In my eyes, that translates to 35s, no axle swaps, must have stock style suspension (long arms ok) and needs to be registered. The whole purpose of the class would be to introduce those drivers to comp wheeling without the possibility of severe damage or rollovers.

 

[POR]

Ok im so confused on this... what is the big difference on sportmans "c" and this stock class people are wanting.. like what does sportmans c have that noone wants? Sportmans c is the stock class.. modified stock is a pro class that will require nets and harness's.. as far as the ftoy class goes.. the Hendrix chasis is what makes a toyota an ftoy, if you didnt have a hendix cage welded on your toyota frame you just had a built toyota. The ftoy class was kinda based loosely on stadium trucks. Everyone is in the same spec rig. so technicaly speaking, drivers is what sets the class apart. One thing i hate hearing from comps is that its just for fun, not serious.. i dont drive 1400 miles one way and spend thousands of dollars racing for just for fun, not serious.. to alot of us this is serious.. very serious. i understand its just for fun for the once a year trail wheeler crowd, but to many of us its not. I think Craig was sadistic on his course's lol and he was a old school hardcore guy, if you were involved in his race your car is gonna get punished and he is gonna push your teams experience and wits. He also made a great family/fun atmosphere that brought people to delta. I really feel sportsmans c fills the beginner competitors pool just fine. Like i said i just really dont see the problem adapting sportmans c.. more easy courses seems futile and way more work for rich to manage. Also just my opinion, comping for perfect scores is boring, i want to see lots of fail on courses, that gets in competitors heads, fuels frustration and makes teams make more mistakes.. no one watches nascar cuz they like watching really fast left turns... its the crashes.. people like watching trainwrecks lol.. hope all this makes sense, i tried to hit up some topics i read in previos posts...

 

[maveric]

Any thoughts on anything that runs 40's should be on the same course as a single seat rear engine buggy? or the seat belt/window net drama?

In 2011, Werock dropped the Ftoy class because there weren't enough to make a class anymore. That year (might have been 12) we attended the Finals in Cortez, Co. Since there was no longer a class for us, we talked with Rich, and by dropping to a 35, we were allowed to run the Stock Mod class. We finished in the top 3, but there was some complaining from the other entrants because we weren't "actually" a Stock Mod.

Fast forward a few years, and Werock held an event in Rangely. It was shortly after they introduced the Sportsman class. It was a lumped together class. Single seat rear engine, rear steer, stockish trucks, full size, etc. We entered that class, since we didn't fit anywhere else. In my opinion, we sandbagged bad. Huge point difference between 1 & 2. However, the point spread between the rest of the group was similar to what we see at OSRC. The following year they added the Sportsman A class. It ran the pro lines, but gave the beginners/more stock rigs their own class. The competitive people jumped up.
What that did was 2 fold. It allowed the newer/less experienced/less built rigs compete against similarly classed people. Also gave the more advanced/higher end builds run the lines that the pros did, without throwing them to the wolves. We finished second that year in SA, but looking at the scores compared to the promods, we would have finished 3rd in PM. The following year we jumped to PM. The layout of the classes allows for the transition to the next class. As for your comment about the 40s and single seat buggies.... I have seen numerous competitors over the years that jumped into a built buggy with not much experience. I have seen single seat rear engine buggies get stomped by a mildly built XJ or 4Runner. They may have the coolest new toy, but not the experience to use it to its potential. (Robbie and his green toyota is a great example. It amazed me where he would put that thing). I would hope that people would (possibly with some tech guidance) sign up for the appropriate class.

Sportsman C fits the entry level class. Doesn't matter if you have a full size or a new rig, or your first comp, or under age and learning to drive, this is a beginner class. Easier courses, less potential for roll over and damage. Similar to current stock courses.

Sportsman B would be the intermediate class. Entry level version of the Promod class. This is probably where most of the rec wheelers would fall. I think that if you have won in the C class, you automatically bump to B the next time. Not sure what courses to put these on. Possibly the Legend lines.

Sportsman A class will be for the better built rigs, advanced drivers, etc. The entry level version of the Unlimited class. Maybe the same courses as the PM and Unlimited.

As to the nets and belts, I know Sportsman C class does not need the harnesses, and none of the Sportsman classes need nets. They are only required for pro classes. (Unless something changed this year)

 

[Johnny Quest]

comping for perfect scores is boring, i want to see lots of fail on courses, that gets in competitors heads, fuels frustration and makes teams make more mistakes

and thats what drives new blood away from getting into competing.

 

[Jinx]

Ok im so confused on this... what is the big difference on sportmans "c" and this stock class people are wanting.. like what does sportmans c have that noone wants? Sportmans c is the stock class.. modified stock is a pro class that will require nets and harness's.. as far as the ftoy class goes.. the Hendrix chasis is what makes a toyota an ftoy, if you didnt have a hendix cage welded on your toyota frame you just had a built toyota. The ftoy class was kinda based loosely on stadium trucks. Everyone is in the same spec rig. so technicaly speaking, drivers is what sets the class apart. One thing i hate hearing from comps is that its just for fun, not serious.. i dont drive 1400 miles one way and spend thousands of dollars racing for just for fun, not serious.. to alot of us this is serious.. very serious. i understand its just for fun for the once a year trail wheeler crowd, but to many of us its not. I think Craig was sadistic on his course's lol and he was a old school hardcore guy, if you were involved in his race your car is gonna get punished and he is gonna push your teams experience and wits. He also made a great family/fun atmosphere that brought people to delta. I really feel sportsmans c fills the beginner competitors pool just fine. Like i said i just really dont see the problem adapting sportmans c.. more easy courses seems futile and way more work for rich to manage. Also just my opinion, comping for perfect scores is boring, i want to see lots of fail on courses, that gets in competitors heads, fuels frustration and makes teams make more mistakes.. no one watches nascar cuz they like watching really fast left turns... its the crashes.. people like watching trainwrecks lol.. hope all this makes sense, i tried to hit up some topics i read in previos posts...

So you ask some good questions.

I guess I wonder where the folks fit that have a rig that is built above stock AF (That is HILARIOUS btw) and sportsman C. So bigger than 37's, no longer has stock axles, kind of thing. (Looking at sportsman C it looks like that class requires Harnesses and window nets...)

The next step for a new guy that has trail rig who wants to come and play is sportsman B, which allows rear engine single seat buggies... Which sounds like a completely different world than a full bodied trail rig with tons and 40's...

I guess in my head either bump the tire size in sportmans A to 40" & create the Sportsman "AF" class (silly laughing on that one) or make a trail rig class for those who have stock frames, stock suspensions, (leaf, coils, long arm ok, no coil overs/air shocks) up to 40" tires.

Am I the only one seeing this whole in the classes? When we lead trails at the W4x4J it seems like most folks who are commited to this sport seem to be running a minimum of 38"-40" tires (or trying to get there)