Ground Zero Mosque, how do you feel?

[JL Rockies]

The constitution is a living document...or so they say.

Actually, that's revisionist BS they teach in public school along with teaching the job of SCOTUS is to interpret the Constitution.

 

[JL Rockies]

I appreciate this response.

The Constitution was created to provide all of these people EQUAL RIGHTS and to defend them. We appoint our government leaders, the people who are charged with protecting and interpreting the constitution, through a public vote. If at some point a single group, such as Muslims, Mormons, gays, Mexicans, etc become large enough and influential enough to begin to influence government decision making, then that is actually what the constitution is designed for--to let the majority rule. Obviously that group would have a substantial population, and like it or not, that population will exert it's influence over government in certain ways. You have the right to go somewhere else (kinda), so if it comes to that take the steps necessary to place yourself and your family in an environment that better suits your beliefs. Just because our population WAS a certain way for the last 250 years, does NOT guarantee that it will continue to be that way for another 250, nor does the Constitution care either way.

The LDS church essentially controls the government here in Utah, and I certainly don't like a lot of what they are able to do, but I still CHOOSE to live here and deal with it. Look at SLC for a prime example. As the % of non LDS people in SLC proper grows, the influence the Church has on local policy decreases. You are seeing less Christian people in government I think, but I don't think it has anything to do with Islam or any conspiracy.

Personally, I see the forthcoming removal of all Christian branding from our country to be influenced FAR FAR more by the increasing population of non-religious people than by the advancement of Islam or Sharia law. Atheist, Agnostics, Secular Humanists, and non-brandedists are growing and will continue to grow much faster than Islam and their influence will be felt.

The Constitution does not give us our rights, any right given by man can be taken by man. The Declaration of Independence states the basic principles that establishes the Federal government within the first 126 words:

-There is a Creator and only he gave us each of our unalienable rights
-God has a moral law that governs men
-The Federal Government exists only to protect the individual rights that God gave us.
-Under our God-given rights, the government is to rule by the consent of the governed.

The Constitution is a document that protects us from them and gives the Fed it's rights.

 

[Cody]

..... I truly believe the country is facing serious challenges to our laws & our constitution right now, and I believe if we do not take a stand, we eventually loose some of our freedoms? I don't want that for myself & my family.

How does this differ from any other period in American history? While our current situation is challenging, I would put it somewhere below things we've gone through. You know, little things like Civil War, Abolition, The Great Depression, WWII, and baseball. None of those things destroyed us, and I tend to think we'll continue to persevere, grow, and adapt.

The Constitution does not give us our rights, any right given by man can be taken by man. The Declaration of Independence states the basic principles that establishes the Federal government within the first 126 words:

-There is a Creator and only he gave us each of our unalienable rights
-God has a moral law that governs men
-The Federal Government exists only to protect the individual rights that God gave us.
-Under our God-given rights, the government is to rule by the consent of the governed.

The Constitution is a document that protects us from them and gives the Fed it's rights.

Like I said, the removal of Christian rhetoric to de-brand our Constitution is coming closer...I believe. This might start a firefight, but it's not because of Islam or Sharia Law, it's because of the increased availability of higher education. Higher education, as a general rule, does not play well with religion.

 

[SAMI]

I agree with Cody, that the larger current 'threat' to any religous threads sewn into our Constitution are coming from the athiest community, and not Muslims or anyone else. Case in point - the recent Tenth Circuit Court of Appeals ruling against 12-foot-high cross displays honoring fallen members of the Utah Highway Patrol. Furthermore the opinion states, “We hold that these memorials have the impermissible effect of conveying to the reasonable observer the message that the State prefers or otherwise endorses a certain religion.”.

To me, the squeeky wheel that is getting the grease right now are the organized athiest groups. They are causing things to change. Some think it's a ridiculous change, others think the crosses are inappropriate. The fact is, is one group is persistant and noisy about it thus changes start to happen.

I just don't see anything in the future of the US that will change with the acceptance of Sharia Law. Unless of course the Muslim community becomes such a massive squeeky wheel, and votes in their own as was previously mentioned.

 

[Bobzilla]

How does this differ from any other period in American history? While our current situation is challenging, I would put it somewhere below things we've gone through. You know, little things like Civil War, Abolition, The Great Depression, WWII, and baseball. None of those things destroyed us, and I tend to think we'll continue to persevere, grow, and adapt.



Like I said, the removal of Christian rhetoric to de-brand our Constitution is coming closer...I believe. This might start a firefight, but it's not because of Islam or Sharia Law, it's because of the increased availability of higher education. Higher education, as a general rule, does not play well with religion.

It may not differ in some ways? but it does differ due to the fact we have modern transportation now, I do not choose to put it below things we have gone through, 100 years ago or so.

I view it as a different challenge than before because we have modern transportation, it is easier for any group whom wishes to accomplish harm to us & our country now days, if they choose to do so.

Everyone is free to come and go as they please, this changes the tables, does that make things better or worse for us? you decide.

I suppose if our government was doing thier job, we may all be better off, the frustration is that our politicians on both sides do not seem to listen or view the will of people as being the least bit important, so we tend to just let anything slide.

Freedom was never free, can we opt out of defending our freedoms in this country today or in 100 years? or must we continue during our lives defending this country & our freedoms.

 

[Herzog]

I agree with Cody, that the larger current 'threat' to any religous threads sewn into our Constitution are coming from the athiest community, and not Muslims or anyone else. Case in point - the recent Tenth Circuit Court of Appeals ruling against 12-foot-high cross displays honoring fallen members of the Utah Highway Patrol. Furthermore the opinion states, “We hold that these memorials have the impermissible effect of conveying to the reasonable observer the message that the State prefers or otherwise endorses a certain religion.”.

To me, the squeeky wheel that is getting the grease right now are the organized athiest groups. They are causing things to change. Some think it's a ridiculous change, others think the crosses are inappropriate. The fact is, is one group is persistant and noisy about it thus changes start to happen.

I just don't see anything in the future of the US that will change with the acceptance of Sharia Law. Unless of course the Muslim community becomes such a massive squeeky wheel, and votes in their own as was previously mentioned.

Yeah, that is pretty BS. I'm not religious at all and I think that whole lawsuit against the UHP crosses is bullshit. That squeaky wheel may eventually "fall" off it the grease doesn't fix it. There are much more important issues today to worry about. Freaking morons.

 

[SAMI]

Yeah, that is pretty BS. I'm not religious at all and I think that whole lawsuit against the UHP crosses is bullshit. That squeaky wheel may eventually "fall" off it the grease doesn't fix it. There are much more important issues today to worry about. Freaking morons.

Agreed.. Oh, but I am a Norman.

It's ridiculous that anyone would go after such a stupid thing as crosses that honor fallen anyone. I respect the fact that someone may not believe in a higher being, or a cow, or a ______ (fill in the blank); but that doesn't give any reason that group A can ban/restrict group B, C, and D's activities.

They gonna go after these next?

 

[Bobzilla]

Yeah, that is pretty BS. I'm not religious at all and I think that whole lawsuit against the UHP crosses is bullshit. That squeaky wheel may eventually "fall" off it the grease doesn't fix it. There are much more important issues today to worry about. Freaking morons.

Agreed, the crap over the UHP crosses is terrible, that's the kinda stuff that really pisses me off, live & let live.

 

[SAMI]

Bobzilla, I just don't understand how you can be so fired up over the Muslim Community Center being built near ground zero, but the athiests forcing the removal of memorial crosses honoring fallen UHP gets a, 'live and let live' response.. Don't get me wrong, I understand that both displease you. But it seems so clear that athiests groups are the ones trying to make the big changes to our country.. Removing 'In God We Trust', 'One nation under God'.. etc...

It's ironic that athiests are trying to remove the 'one nation under God' from public schools.. Yet, the original Pledge of Allegiance was published in a children's publication to promote and encourage patriotism and the display of the American flag in public schools.

 

[SAMI]

Can't forget the Jehovah's Witnesses, they too dislike the Pledge of Allegiance.

 

[ID Bronco]

My recommendation is to quit posting BS, buy a plane ticket, spend some time down at ground zero, talk to the people who actually live, work, and coexist in the greater manhattan area and find out for yourself. If not, then STFU.

Goat, this kind of response makes you sound really stupid. I don't think you should be telling someone to do this when you don't have to read it. I am a little surprised it's allowed on the forum. It is way past being rude.

This might start a firefight, but it's not because of Islam or Sharia Law, it's because of the increased availability of higher education. Higher education, as a general rule, does not play well with religion.

So all of these religious people must not be highly educated? This is an attitude I feel quite a bit on RME. Some on here are too smart for the religious responses. I think it's pretty offensive to educated religious people.

Hijack almost off. Thanks for the advice of reading my posts first, I deleted a bunch.

 

[Bobzilla]

Bobzilla, I just don't understand how you can be so fired up over the Muslim Community Center being built near ground zero, but the athiests forcing the removal of memorial crosses honoring fallen UHP gets a, 'live and let live' response.. Don't get me wrong, I understand that both displease you. But it seems so clear that athiests groups are the ones trying to make the big changes to our country.. Removing 'In God We Trust', 'One nation under God'.. etc...

It's ironic that athiests are trying to remove the 'one nation under God' from public schools.. Yet, the original Pledge of Allegiance was published in a children's publication to promote and encourage patriotism and the display of the American flag in public schools.

Fair enough I will try & explain, you also seem to get fired up about the UHP crosses, and I think that is cool, the fact you will stand up for the crosses being up, I think you are spot on.

The some people whom are behind the mosque have some shady back grounds the Imam & his wife for starters. You may be right in the belief sharia will never happen? I hope you are right.

I guess I am older than many of you and mabey les tolerant of change? mabey more defensive of our country I guess, mabey I come across wrong? I don't mean to offend anyone.

I love this country and my family & friends and I do have sincere questions in regards to the location of the mosque at this time, in this year and at that particular location, I wish they would be more sensitive & pick another location.

 

[Cody]

So all of these religious people must not be highly educated? This is an attitude I feel quite a bit on RME. Some on here are too smart for the religious responses. I think it's pretty offensive to educated religious people.

I never said there were no highly educated religious people, or that religious people are dumb by any means. Just that the modern education system is based upon a system of logic that leads to reasonable and supportable conclusions. Religion is based upon another system, that of faith, and does not require factual support. They are not necessarily mutually exclusive, but you have to admit the marriage between the two is a difficult one to make.

I also don't understand why the roadside crosses aren't allowed. Seems silly to me.

 

[ID Bronco]

I never said there were no highly educated religious people, or that religious people are dumb by any means. Just that the modern education system is based upon a system of logic that leads to reasonable and supportable conclusions. Religion is based upon another system, that of faith, and does not require factual support. They are not necessarily mutually exclusive, but you have to admit the marriage between the two is a difficult one to make.

I also don't understand why the roadside crosses aren't allowed. Seems silly to me.

Cody, I don't want to argue about that but I will try to find it, once I read a book that was about a highly scientific Christian. Wish I could recall the name but it did bring the two together very well and very logically. I will see if I can dig it up.


At lunch today I called one of my co workers who lives in NY City. I asked his thoughts about this with no background or any biased remarks. His take as a New Yorker is that it is very insensitive toward the city, nation and New Yorkers. He feels it is in very bad taste, but agreed that legally it is their right. So he was right in line with about 5-6 posts in this thread. (I couldn't affort the plane ticket to go down there) This is the best I could do.

 

[Cody]

Cody, I don't want to argue about that but I will try to find it, once I read a book that was about a highly scientific Christian. Wish I could recall the name but it did bring the two together very well and very logically. I will see if I can dig it up.

There are people that are that way for certain, as I said it's a hard marriage to make but there are people who make it. Science doesn't have all of the answers, and modern cosmology is a wide open door for allowing the presence of supernatural interference. It would have to be a very heterodox Christian (in mindset at least) to delve into that as some of the supporting tenants that get you to a point where you can say "well, the margin of error is so small that it almost seems like a higher power was in control of this" go against things that are written in the bible as fact.

There is an interesting movie called "What the &$%* do we know" that touches on a lot of this. There is a guy on there who was the head of the Cambridge(?) school of religion for 20ish years and then all of a sudden decided he didn't believe in any of it, and there are also religious scholars and scientists that marry the concepts of religion and science in pretty interesting ways. Very thought provoking--but watch it twice because some parts move so fast that you don't have time to digest it.

 

[GOAT]

One thing that becomes obvious is there are some groups of you that like act like sharks in the waters, gotta band together, pretty funny man.

What is it with references to we and people, is there some little click or group that bands together on this site? do I have to play your little game to fit in? I don't think so.

i hope you're not including me in this statement. i'm on the far left of politics as far as this forum goes. my commonality lies is the fact that i enjoy rockcrawling and have been loyal enough to the sport to earn a few friends along the way. jenn learned to stay away from politics and ultimately the sport, but i still like to stoke the coals a bit. nothing personal.

Goat, this kind of response makes you sound really stupid. I don't think you should be telling someone to do this when you don't have to read it. I am a little surprised it's allowed on the forum. It is way past being rude.
.

Why are you surprised? I think it's pretty logical. Go and see for yourself. it's basic problem solving when one keeps asking why until they can no more. Its how we evolve. I have absolutely no opinion on the cultural center, it's a non-issue for me. My frustration come from the hype surrounding these recent "issues" and they way we as a nation handle it. Oddly enough, most hot button topics seem to revolve around people who are either gay, or have brown skin. in the end, its a divide and conquer mentality.

 

[Bobzilla]

i hope you're not including me in this statement. i'm on the far left of politics as far as this forum goes. my commonality lies is the fact that i enjoy rockcrawling and have been loyal enough to the sport to earn a few friends along the way. jenn learned to stay away from politics and ultimately the sport, but i still like to stoke the coals a bit. nothing personal.

Yea I guess that I am including you, reason being you have something in common with some others on this forum, telling people to "STFU" OK, calling people names, saying thier stupid, that's crap! look you can make the point to me another way alright.

I don't believe that I have ever been that dam rude to anyone on this site, it is a hot topic that's for sure, just be cool OK, I don't want to get into name calling and saying crap like you did.

I know you do not agree with me, that's fine, I respect that, so have a little more respect for some of us you disagree with.

 

[GOAT]

i hope you're not including me in this statement. i'm on the far left of politics as far as this forum goes. my commonality lies is the fact that i enjoy rockcrawling and have been loyal enough to the sport to earn a few friends along the way. jenn learned to stay away from politics and ultimately the sport, but i still like to stoke the coals a bit. nothing personal.

Yea I guess that I am including you, reason being you have something in common with some others on this forum, telling people to "STFU" OK, calling people names, saying thier stupid, that's crap! look you can make the point to me another way alright.

I don't believe that I have ever been that dam rude to anyone on this site, it is a hot topic that's for sure, just be cool OK, I don't want to get into name calling and saying crap like you did.

I know you do not agree with me, that's fine, I respect that, so have a little more respect for some of us you disagree with.

STFU is a figure of speech, and i never said any of you were stupid. it appears from your posts that you and a few others share a pretty narrow vision of the rest of the world. you also must consider there are also pages and pages of people trying to reason with you to no avail. the resources you provide to justify your beliefs are from sites run by others, just like yourself. patience tends to wear thin.

ill let the mods decide the rest.......


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[GOAT]

 

[Tacoma]

hahahahah

Thanks, Marcus. That makes my night. That is a great cartoon.