guns in society

4554x4

always modifing something
Location
Sandy Utah
>
> -----Original Message-----
> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 6:33 AM
> Subject: The Gun is Civilization
>
> The Gun is Civilization
> by Marko Kloos
> Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and
> force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of
> either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under
> threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two
> categories, without exception. Reason or force, that's it.
> In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact
> through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social
> interaction and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the
> personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.
> When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use
> reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your
> threat or employment of force. The gun is the only personal weapon that
> puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a
> 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gangbanger, and
> a single guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball
> bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or
> numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.
> There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad
> force equations. These are the people who think that we'd be more
> civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes
> it easier for a [armed] mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only
> true if the mugger's potential victims are mostly disarmed either by
> choice or by legislative fiat--it has no validity when most of a
> mugger's potential marks are
> armed.
> People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the
> young, the strong, and the many, and that's the exact opposite of a
> civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a
> successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force
> monopoly.
> Then there's the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that
> otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in
> several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the
> physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury
> on the loser.
> People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don't constitute
> lethal force watch too much TV; where people take beatings and come out
> of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal
> force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the
> stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level.
> The gun is the only weapon that's as lethal in the hands of an
> octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weight lifter. It simply
> wouldn't work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn't both lethal and
> easily employable.
> When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but
> because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I
> cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid,
> but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions
> of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of
> those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation...and
> that's why carrying a gun is
> a civilized act.
>
>
 

Cody

Random Quote Generator
Supporting Member
Location
Gastown
force is technically a type of persuasion.

so it's the means by which you attempt to persuade someone that is under deontological scrutiny.

I have no problem with responsible people carrying guns, I personally have never once felt like I needed it, but some people are paranoid and/or need that feeling of authority falsely provided by an external source. To each their own.
 

78mitsu

Registered User
force is technically a type of persuasion.

so it's the means by which you attempt to persuade someone that is under deontological scrutiny.

I have no problem with responsible people carrying guns, I personally have never once felt like I needed it, but some people are paranoid and/or need that feeling of authority falsely provided by an external source. To each their own.


I largely disagree, I don't see a carrying a firearm as providing an external method of empowerment, or gratifying a paranoia; although for some I'm sure you're correct. I view carrying a firearm more like wearing a seat belt, the time may never come that you need either, depending on the choices you make. However there are times when you may need either because there are other cars on the road, and other people who also choose their own path.
 

Tacoma

Et incurventur ante non
Location
far enough away
so you will monotonously and regularly kill unarmed peoples!?!?!?!? :D

I know what you mean.

I carry just in case. I am more concerned with weirdos in the middle of nowhere than I am in any UT city, including big scary Ogden. :D You may find yourself in the genealogy library, or Trolley Square.
Where I come from home invasions were big, and stickups. I've had guns pulled on me at work, and I don't ever want to feel that helpless again, waiting to maybe get shot in the head. So yeah, there's a little paranoia, but it's not really unfounded in my experience.
I'm also not thinking that there are bad guys at every turn and we're going to have a shootout any second, or that a gun is a substitute for civil resolutions to arguments... :D
 

soda blaster

Active Member
Location
Saratoga Springs
I carry in hopes to never having to use it, but if I do I will be ready. It's not enough to own and carry a gun you have to go to the ranges and shoot it regularly so you are comfortable with the use of it. I go through literally thousands of rounds monthly. We do fun shoots (scenario shooting) and regular target shooting. Like i said I hope I never have to use it, but if I do I will be prepared.
 

cowmilker

SUPER CHEESY
Ya but what about all those "documented incidents" where the gun has been taken away from the victim and used on them?:rolleyes:
That is what my neighbor told me as I was returning from a shooting trip.
 

Kiel

Formerly WJ ZUK
Ya but what about all those "documented incidents" where the gun has been taken away from the victim and used on them?:rolleyes:
That is what my neighbor told me as I was returning from a shooting trip.

Mostly people that can't decide when the right time to use it is. You better be ready to use it, if you pull it. Thats when those people still try to reason because they really don't have the reasoning or training on when to shoot. People should never know you have a firearm until your ready to use it in a protective situation
 

gijohn40

too poor to wheel... :(
Location
Layton, Utah
Those people that have guns taken away from them and then used on them, usually have no training with a handgun and therefore are not prepared to use it... this is why you really do need to take some training classes specially some that have you actually shooting at human pictured targets...

When I was teaching soldiers to fire their weapons in the military prior to them going to Iraq I found that alot of them could fire the M-16 all day long at a bullseye target but once I put an actual face and body on that target the majority of them couldn't even hit the target and if they did it was a shot that would wound a person not kill them... the military has learned this lesson and has started redoing their training on weapons to help take away that judgement call that people have trouble making...
 

cowmilker

SUPER CHEESY
I've heard rumor but I've never read about it (documented incident?).
I do remember an (documented) incident recently where the VICTIM took the gun away from, and shot, the BAD GUY who had broken in to his house and had held him hostage tying up his wife while the baby was asleep in the other room. I guess its possible for a gun to be taken away from someone. This neighbor lady of mine wont let her kids play inside my house because there is guns. Like they are giving off some kind of radiation that can seep through the door of the locked gun cabinet, and cause her kids to get cancer.
The ani-gun mindset is a fear based on lies! That is what makes me mad.
 
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