Its really that bad...

[cruiseroutfit]

In a recent thread (another local forum, not RME) a user posted a trip report about their motorcycle trip to the HITR trail. In addition to the HITR trail they also did the Rincon Trail. Now technically the Rincon Trail is now closed, they (NPS) are looking into it, but as of today, its closed. So this usergroup didn't know that and there are no signs stating otherwise right, honest mistake, I'll leave it at that. Now consider the fact all part of the trail within the Glen Canyon NRA is closed to OHV's, meaning unless your street legal and plated, you can't be in there, no biggy, another honest mistake.

Here is where it gets disturbing to me, his comments after politely being told about the situation:

"I had heard that it was closed to motorized use and that it was posted as such at the top. We came across no signs whatsoever and considering it was January, I didn't suspect that we would run into rangers on the lake or trail. Had it been posted, I probably would have chickened out, but we had the excuse in our back pocket that it was not posted."

"The place is so damned remote that you are highly unlikely to encounter any NPS ranger. They sure as hell don't patrol the trail itself and any encounter with any enforcement officer would be from a boat on the lake, in which case they don't have the means to come after you. And for those who say you can't outrun the radios, there is nobody to friggin call. The closet town is probably Blanding which is 60+ miles away. The logistics for enforcing whether or not someone has proper registration on their bike or whether they should or shouldn't be down on the Rincon with them is not feasible. I for one will continue to ride my unlicensed steel horse on the HITR down to the Rincon. If a NPS ranger stops me, it is "sorry man, ya gotta post it if you don't want people down there." And if by chance they do post it, I am still going down there and I will wipe my ass with the ticket."

"The only ace I have left as far as I am concerned is that areas such as the Swell and Wilson's mesa are so big, that you couldn't begin to enforce anything."

Can you believe this crap? How will we ever save our trails with rogue users like this? How?

This same particular guy and his friends found what they called an "abandoned" camp trailer out near Five Mile Pass. So they decided to blow it up using some Tannerite (psuedo-legal explosive). Did they know the owner of the trailer? Of course not? Heck, they don't even know if the trailer is on public lands, it could have been a hunting or a ranching trailer, who knows.

Do you think they cleaned up the mess? Absolutely not... it will be up to some dedicated public land users like RME to cleanup another mess out in the desert. Remember the campers and cars we've picked up at 5MP in the past? the Rodeo on Constrictor, all those cars near Little Moab? The camper at 5MP that for the RME NPLD cleanup 3-4 years ago? Now try one thats been blow into thousands of pieces and left to blow around.

This type of behavior and even bragging if you will is exactly why the anti-motorized crowd thinks our users are so ignorant and selfish. Are they always wrong? Sadly no. :-\

(I'm not naming the individual nor the forum, if you know, then you've probably already heard me bitching, this has more to do with this type of users rather than this particular user, I'll leave it at that).

 

[jdub]

Same reason why they don't show a pic of someone who hits a pedestrian with their car, it would encourage retaliation. Good call, even though this guy needs his lights knocked out, this day and age it's hard to give someone what is coming to them without a court appearance.

 

[Skylinerider]

This type of person has no integrity what so ever. He goes along and as long as he never gets caught he doesn't care, when he does get caught it'll be someone elses fault. The guy's a douche, and gives all OHV users a bad name.

 

[Tacoma]

I cannot support that individual's position. As to the trailer detonation, WTF? They are a pain in the ass to clean up, not to mention, as you already did-- whose trailer was it? Was it being used very rarely? At any rate it wasn't theirs.

I hope this guy's reading this and sees how he screws things up for us.



on another note, what's up w/closing trails and no signs????

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...on another note, what's up w/closing trails and no signs????

The trails technically been closed for 30 or so years... as in since the inception of Lake Powell and the GCNRA its never been considered a legit route. Its true they held the blind eye for many years, but they have signed it in the past (they don't last too long in the middle of nowhere) and they are very clear that OHV's are not permitted anywere in GCNRA with the exception of one small OHV play area (not near HITR). Its sucks, if it were just the Rincon, honest mistake... one I'm guilty of. I even called the park office prior to our trip, I was given the go ahead. They have since been revising their travel management plan and thats when it became apparent they have seemingly never had the route on their maps. I along with others have spoken with them about adding it to their route inventory, the park rep had never been on the trail and was actually very open to checking it out to see what "its all about". I'm going to followup with him on Monday.

 

[jdub]

Tacoma, I'm with you on the sign thing. I was hassled by cops for being in a off-road area in the Utah Valley foothills. The neighbors got a flyer stating it to be off limits but I don't live in the neighborhood. I was nice but firm that I had no idea.

The cop said that there was signs but they just got ripped down every time they get posted.

Here's the difference..... Once I found out I haven't returned.

What's this guy's excuse? He knew. I'm afraid that with even the proper education this "gentleman" would still take his unlicensed bike wherever.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...Here's the difference..... Once I found out I haven't returned...

Exactly, we've all been guilty of it. I'll be the first to admit I've done a ton of dumb things, but I don't need to be told more than once that I'm ruining it for other motorized users.

Can you imagine if the NPS rep read that thread and this guys comments and trip report? Why would they even consider opening it when they can't even get folks to obey the current policies? I can guarantee they are worried about the "propagation effect". Let them run the old trail and next thing you know there is a new deeper one, and deeper, and deeper.

I (and several other RME'ers) spent some time talking to the FS about re-opening the Pittsburg Lake Trail in AF Canyon. They actually instigated the conversation by saying they had recently acquired all the property the trail crosses. The jist of the conversation was "why would we do it? look whats happened to Forest Lake". Trails and trash all over the place, rigs in the middle of the lake, crap floating in the water. Why?

 

[anderson750]

I was told that the Rincon was open under RS2477. Is this incorrect?

 

[cruiseroutfit]

I was told that the Rincon was open under RS2477. Is this incorrect?

Hmmm, thats a tough one. I guess we would have to consult with the county down there to see if they have claimed it. I've honestly never heard that but it could very well be a "debated" trail. However as it exists within the GCNRA, their rules have historically "stood", think Burr Trail, Elephant Hill, White Rim, etc... all closed to ATV's and they have closed numerous routes that could not be saved by RS2477. I would say for certain that it is not "open" per RS2477, as the NPS staunchly considers it closed and it does not appear on their motorized travel map, however it might be "openable" if that makes sense. Worth looking into for sure.

One would really need to know how long it was actually open to the public prior to the inception of Lake Powell. It was possibly closed to public traffic when it was used for the private mining ventures, I don't have any info on that. It was built in 1958, GCNRA became official in 1972, so if may have only been open for a short period. Now the NPS has knowingly let travel slide on the route for many years, but they have always considered it closed per my info. Imo its definitely a route worth pursuing further.

 

[anderson750]

This thread prompted me to make a call to AP. When he talked to Saun Jaun County Commissioners a couple of years ago, when we ran the trail on motorcycles, they claimed it as their road and open under RS2477.

He was going to do some checking into and see if they still consider it open. In reality this probably falls into a County vs. federal like the Jessop fight in St. George. Was anybody ticketed.

We ran this trail last November on motorcycles and did not have these problems. UTMA has it as a group ride every year also.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

This thread prompted me to make a call to AP. When he talked to Saun Jaun County Commissioners a couple of years ago, when we ran the trail on motorcycles, they claimed it as their road and open under RS2477.

He was going to do some checking into and see if they still consider it open. In reality this probably falls into a County vs. federal like the Jessop fight in St. George. Was anybody ticketed.

We ran this trail last November on motorcycles and did not have these problems. UTMA has it as a group ride every year also.

Nobody has been ticketed in this case, but tickets have been issued for being in the area. There are two seperate issues, the non non-street legal vehicles in the NRA (which the county can't do anything about) and the Rincon Trail (which is closed per the NPS to everyone). I would be interested to know if the county is still pressing this one, hope they are but am doubtful given the outcome of others.

The Canaan Mtn deal was on regular BLM land, with a road that pre-dated the BLM. This was clearly a much newer route :-\

 

[anderson750]

Nobody has been ticketed in this case, but tickets have been issued for being in the area. There are two seperate issues, the non non-street legal vehicles in the NRA (which the county can't do anything about) and the Rincon Trail (which is closed per the NPS to everyone). I would be interested to know if the county is still pressing this one, hope they are but am doubtful given the outcome of others.

I see the difference you are referring to now. I will let you know if I hear anyting more on this after some calls are made.

The Canaan Mtn deal was on regular BLM land, with a road that pre-dated the BLM. This was clearly a much newer route :-\

You are right. Can't compare apples to oranges.

 

[solidfrontaxle]

Exactly, we've all been guilty of it. I'll be the first to admit I've done a ton of dumb things, but I don't need to be told more than once that I'm ruining it for other motorized users.

I've driven off a trail twice. The first time was in Providence canyon. I went up what I thought it was a trail, but it wasn't, my truck slid sideways into some trees, I got it stuck, smashed every body panel, and got a $200 ticket from the forest service.

The second time, I got in a hurry, I tried to make a shortcut through open desert and down a ravine, slid sideways into a tree, and punched a hole in the window. I kept driving and ended up rolling the truck onto its lid and crushing the cab. I think the worst part was knowing that my actions could be screwing it up for everyone else that enjoys that area.

I try not to anger the offroad gods anymore...

 

[scoutabout]

He goes along and as long as he never gets caught he doesn't care, when he does get caught it'll be someone elses fault.

Unfortunately, some of the organized groups promote this line of thinking. OHV users are not the victims in the land use fight. OHV users are accomplices to closure. We'll keep losing access until we reverse this mindset (and do a few other things ).

 

[jdub]

QUOTE=solidfrontaxle I got it stuck, smashed every body panel, and got a $200 ticket from the forest service.

The second time, I got in a hurry, slid sideways into a tree, and punched a hole in the window. I kept driving and ended up rolling the truck onto its lid and crushing the cab.

Remind me to never hop in your truck.

But I will do a trail with you for the carnage factor and good pics.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

I see the difference you are referring to now. I will let you know if I hear anyting more on this after some calls are made...

Keep me posted, I just left a message with Brian (Rec Planner for the Glen Canyon NRA). We spoke about the Rincon last year and I wanted to see if he had any sort of an update. I'll update as soon as I hear back from him.

 

[solidfrontaxle]

Remind me to never hop in your truck.

But I will do a trail with you for the carnage factor and good pics.[/B]

If I stay on the trail nothing bad ever happens. I tell you, it's offroad karma. I learned my lesson. The hard way.

 

[CJJ92yj]

Can one be held liable for damages (resulting in a ticket) for posting such information in a forum thread? I mean, he openly admitted what he did, knowing that what he was doing was wrong.

FWIW, I've been reading that forum like mad since it was made known to me recently. Interesting to say the least. Some good info for sure, and some not so good.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Can one be held liable for damages (resulting in a ticket) for posting such information in a forum thread? I mean, he openly admitted what he did, knowing that what he was doing was wrong...

Doubtful much could be done, they might send a ticket in the mail, who knows. More damaging is the fact he promotes it, puts in on a very public forum with very polarized users, many of which are anti-motorized. Now consider that his kind are not as we rare... and when they help justify it to others with similar ethics, bad things result.

 

[CJJ92yj]

Doubtful much could be done, they might send a ticket in the mail, who knows. More damaging is the fact he promotes it, puts in on a very public forum with very polarized users, many of which are anti-motorized. Now consider that his kind are not as we rare... and when they help justify it to others with similar ethics, bad things result.

I agree. It's one thing to unknowingly commit the crime, and another to willfully commit the crime and promote that type of behavior.

I ask because occasionally I come across stuff like that and wonder what could actually be done if it were reported.