Jeep Safari 5 year permit and EA

[greenjeep]

Has anyone seen the Creek in Arch Canyon? Here's a clip of a motorcycle heading up Arch Canyon. Looks like that's prime territory for fish habitation.

Here is a quote from "The Response to Public Comment" about Arch Canyon; it sums it well if you ask me. (empasis added).

Riparian issues in Arch Canyon were addressed in the EA Checklist. Because the proposed action utilized the existing road, impacts to riparian were expected to be minimal. This 4.5 miles has 29 stream crossings, of which 17 cross riparian zones (12 crossing are on dry stream beds of sand or rocks). These crossings comprise 0.02 acres of riparian habitat out of a total of 223 Arch Canyon riparian acres (0.00009%). Vehicle travel on the existing route creates no new disturbance to riparian vegetation. Arch Canyon is not on the list of impaired waters compiled by the State of Utah Department of Water Quality.

That means at the most we could only effect nine-onehundredthousandths of the total riparian area of Arch Canyon . Get over it already greenies!!!!!

Good job on permit Dave!

Thanks

 

[Todd Adams]

OK Dave tell me this. Between Gold Bar and the Spike the junction for the two would be closed for the entire Safari. When can I go up and run Rusty Nail with a few friends?
Todd

 

[James K]

We're not exactly sure how it will be executed, but essentially, yeah what you said.

That seems a bit extreme.

OK Dave tell me this. Between Gold Bar and the Spike the junction for the two would be closed for the entire Safari. When can I go up and run Rusty Nail with a few friends?
Todd

this is my concern also.

 

[Steve]

A sincere Thank You to the RR4W for all they do, both publicly and behind the scenes. :bow:

While I'm glad the permit has been granted, I have very mixed feelings about the trail restrictions. I understand why they were requested and how they will help, but it seems to me to set a bad precedent. Now that it's been granted once, I can foresee lots of other organized groups asking for trail closures and restrictions for their events. Since the BLM has granted them once, I don't see how they can deny that to other organized groups and permitted events. If that does happen, it will mean that wheeling on public land will become much more restricted to those of us who don't belong to a club or wish to attend organized pay-to-play events.

While I live less than 90 minutes from Moab, I stay well clear of there during EJS because of the out-of-control crowds, the spring break crowd, and what that week has morphed into. It will be very interesting to see what happens in and around Moab in the next several years. This adds another factor to an already difficult situation.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...While I'm glad the permit has been granted, I have very mixed feelings about the trail restrictions. I understand why they were requested and how they will help, but it seems to me to set a bad precedent. Now that it's been granted once, I can foresee lots of other organized groups asking for trail closures and restrictions for their events. Since the BLM has granted them once, I don't see how they can deny that to other organized groups and permitted events. If that does happen, it will mean that wheeling on public land will become much more restricted to those of us who don't belong to a club or wish to attend organized pay-to-play events...

This is by no means the first time a federal land agency has granted ROW's to a selected group. In fact often they are to smaller groups, and take up more of a regions trails (think Rubicon & Jeep Jamboree). The actualy amount of trails included in the ROW relative to the total amount of trails in the greater Moab area are pretty minimal, thus there should be very little inconveinience for those that plan ahead.

This becomes a safety & enviromental concern for the BLM, if other groups can prove that they need the trail shut for these same reasons, then so be it... but it is VERY unlikely that any other events have the same situation as the EJS (1500 actual participants, thousands of non).

Sounds like a great reason to get involved with a club/Association... Sadly, the "pay-to-play" mentality is going to be a common place... even close to SLC there are initiative to make any sizable (you and 10 freinds) group pay before they can recreate on public land. Why can't groups like the Utah 4 Wheel Drive Association (and its members clubs such as RR4W among 15+ others) fight to keep that from happening? Because we spend most of our volunteer time trying to convince people to actually join our cause, rather than "do their own thing" and watch **** crumble. We are pittence compared to groups like SUWA, we have a small percentage of their membership, yet our sport has far more users (especially in the greater Utah).

It is important for people to remember that many trails in Moab would with out doubt be closed for public use it it were not for the RR4W. So for that reason alone, I think it is worth it to respect their event, don't get in the way, and if you don't want to pay to play with them, don't be a menace.

I must admit I have never been a paid EJS participant, but I am a RR4W, if nothing else but to send some $$$ to the guys that keep trails open for many other clubs/events. I happen to know that many other events in the area piggy-back on RR4W's permit that they spend $$$ on. (Cruise Moab, Susuki deal, Bronco event?). The more I think about it I feel like a free-loader just using a trail that they have fought to keep open, thats why sending them a bit of green each year is a SMALL price to pay for the service they provide.

Off my soapbox...

 

[Steve]

Kurt, as I said, I can see both sides of this. I'm not a club-joining kind of guy, but I would join RR4W if it was possible for a non-Utah resident to join since I wheel Moab a lot (just not during EJS.) Can a non-Utah resident join RR4W?

As for other groups "piggybacking" on the RR4W's permit, I don't know about other events, but I can speak for the Moab Bronco Safari. That's never been an "official" event, as there's no registration, no fees, etc. It's very laid back and, at least at the present time, there are no plans to change that or ask for trail closures for us.

Personally, I'd like to see the dates of EJS changed to get rid of the spring break crowd. Maybe I'd attend again if that happened, but with what that week has turned into (through no fault of the RR4W) I'll continue to stay away from there that week.

 

[JIM]

Rr4w

Yes a no resident can belong to the RR4W'S.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Kurt, as I said, I can see both sides of this. I'm not a club-joining kind of guy, but I would join RR4W if it was possible for a non-Utah resident to join since I wheel Moab a lot (just not during EJS.) Can a non-Utah resident join RR4W?

Sure, they have members all over the US (and probably outside the US too).

As for other groups "piggybacking" on the RR4W's permit, I don't know about other events, but I can speak for the Moab Bronco Safari. That's never been an "official" event, as there's no registration, no fees, etc. It's very laid back and, at least at the present time, there are no plans to change that or ask for trail closures for us.

Sounds like you are dodging the BLM requirements for ANY commercial (paid or non-paid) organized event to get a permit... If you have 50 or more attendees, you need a permit. And actually (I might be mistaken on this), I think they "can" at their discretion enforce permits for organized groups over 10.

I don't agree with the "get a permit so you can responsibly recreate", but it is a reality... The ones that get a permit are the ones that would be responsible either way. The ones that trash the land would never get a permit to begin with... (not saying by any means this is your group)

Personally, I'd like to see the dates of EJS changed to get rid of the spring break crowd. Maybe I'd attend again if that happened, but with what that week has turned into (through no fault of the RR4W) I'll continue to stay away from there that week.

Me too, as did MANY other RR4W members. However, associate members (members that don't live in Grand County) don't get to vote on the matter. As I recall the last vote was VERY close and it could change in the future. I have mixed feelings about it. The party crowd is going to go that weekend regardless... Is it better to have them "filtered" with some good folks to help clean up the mess? Or do we let it go to waste that weekend?

On the otherhand, if the big "show" wasn't that weekend, some of the party crowd might choose a different destination as they are looking for just that, a show.

As a note, when I refer the the "party" crowd, I am referring to the guys that head out to PS & DB all day, everyday... You know the ones

 

[Steve]

Sounds like you are dodging the BLM requirements for ANY commercial (paid or non-paid) organized event to get a permit... If you have 50 or more attendees, you need a permit.

We asked this specific question of the BLM not long ago because we DON'T want to "dodge" their requirements or have any problems. Their answer was very "muddy" and basically consisted of "we don't think your event needs a permit now but it may in the future." WTF kind of criteria is that???

As a note, when I refer the the "party" crowd, I am referring to the guys that head out to PS & DB all day, everyday... You know the ones

Yes, I know the ones.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

We asked this specific question of the BLM not long ago because we DON'T want to "dodge" their requirements or have any problems. Their answer was very "muddy" and basically consisted of "we don't think your event needs a permit now but it may in the future." WTF kind of criteria is that???

Permits are still very confusing... some events are getting nailed, others are not. It simply comes down to who you get on the phone... They do have a policy, however they have some degree of freedom as to how they actually enforce the permit requirements it seems. We run into the same situation here in No. Utah. We worked our butts off to get a permit to hold our U4WDA Summer Convention in AF Canyon, paperwork, meetings @ their office, etc. In the end they just said have fun, thanks for all you do in the canyon. Fine by us, we just want to play by the rules...

 

[greenjeep]

OK Dave tell me this. Between Gold Bar and the Spike the junction for the two would be closed for the entire Safari. When can I go up and run Rusty Nail with a few friends?
Todd

That's a good question, I'll ask at our meeting with the BLM next week when we'll be trying to get all our exclusive use questions answered. I'll let you know either way.

 

[pumpkinbronc]

just out of curiosity, how can they enforce that and what are the repercussions?

not that i plan to violate, but that seems to be a lot to enforce.

I was at the safari about 8yrs ago not as a registered participant and wanted to head up moab rim with my vehicle and just sit and watch people climb the zturn but was turned away by a grand county deputy. I went down to pritchett and had no problems getting on the trail. Maybe they just enforce them randomly?

 

[Todd Adams]

That's a good question, I'll ask at our meeting with the BLM next week when we'll be trying to get all our exclusive use questions answered. I'll let you know either way.

Thanks Dave. Even us trail leaders are affected by this. Might just have to go to BFE or (dread) shop on our days off.
Todd

 

[Todd Adams]

We asked this specific question of the BLM not long ago because we DON'T want to "dodge" their requirements or have any problems. Their answer was very "muddy" and basically consisted of "we don't think your event needs a permit now but it may in the future." WTF kind of criteria is that??? QUOTE]

I help with the Isuzu event, which has been permitted the last 4 years. We are now on the other side trying to go without a permit this year and limit our numbers to 49. One good thing and I am not sure I should write this on a public forum but things are a bit easier at the Moab office now that Alex has left.

The sad thing is the cost of insurance, which we have to have with the BLM as the beneficiary. It does not cover participants but they are forced to pay out around $30 a day just to cover it. Without the permit there is no need for the insurance hence a much less costly event.

 

[greenjeep]

I am not sure I should write this on a public forum but things are a bit easier at the Moab office now that Alex has left.

Chad, who took Alex's position, and Katie have been absolulty wonderful. They do a great job seeing things from our perspective.

 

[Todd Adams]

Chad, who took Alex's position, and Katie have been absolulty wonderful. They do a great job seeing things from our perspective.

That is what I am hearing

 

[drtsqrl]

There has been a lot of good discussion on this topic, both for and against exclusive and one-way use. As a RR4W member, I was involved in bringing this about (as well as attempting to convince the club to move the date), and as such have spent a lot of thought, time and effort on the matter. Will it bring about the desired results? I hope so, but only time will tell. It is certainly not the perfect solution, and a lot of people obviously do not agree with it. But I would like those who disagree to consider a few facts that many people seem to be missing:

Fact: Our motorized trails in Moab are under attack from those who will not stop until they are all closed. This comes not only from the green groups, but also from many individuals and businesses here in Moab. And Easter Jeep Safari is their number one target. If they manage to shut down EJS, how long do you think it will be before they succeed in closing many of the trails permanently? It is an easy scenario to imagine. “If BLM can’t manage the damage from the controlled, permitted events, how can they hope to control casual, unregulated use? The trails must be closed!” Far fetched? I think not.

Fact: Easter week in Moab is getting out of hand. On many of the popular trails, less than 5 percent of the 4x4 traffic is comprised of registered, paying EJS participants. The BLM does not have a problem with the registered participants… their studies show that virtually none of the resource damage is caused by those groups. But the sheer numbers of rigs on the trails DO lead to damage, whether intentional or not. When large groups of wheelers meet on the trail, they must go off-trail to pass. Or people get bored or upset waiting for another group, and someone makes a new route to get around, or creates a new obstacle just to pass the time. These people may be the minority, but it only takes one rig to create damage. And each new case of damage adds fuel to the greenies crusade.

Now, will exclusive and one-way use help to lessen these problems? On the days RR4W is using these trails, YES! Will it force non-registered people onto other trails, only to increase the damage on those trails? That is a distinct possibility. Will it keep some people away from Moab during EJS? I’m sure it will, if not this year, then maybe next year or the next. I believe the best thing that could happen is that EVERYONE who uses the trails during EJS does it as part of an official EJS run. This would drastically reduce the resource damage we now see. No one wants to close down all of the Moab trails to everyone except registered participants (although this kind of thing does happen at some events throughout the country). What we would like to see is to make the official runs much more enjoyable to everyone, so people will WANT to participate in this way. RR4W’s EJS registration has been in decline for several years, while non-registered attendance has skyrocketed. If these new regulations will help reverse this trend, then I am all for it. If we had more paying guests, and a lot less “tag-a-longs”, we could schedule more trails, have smaller group sizes, and make it more fun for everyone.

Personally, I enjoy EJS. I love the camaraderie, the excitement, and seeing all the rigs. I admit that I would usually rather do my own thing, with a few friends, than go with a large group on an “official” run. I have done this in the past, and will surely do so again (as long as no RR4W run is using the trail that day). I also lead and gun official trails during the week. But if EJS is not brought under control, we will eventually lose this event, and then we will lose our trails. I do not see the new permit as being “selfish” or “elitist” as some have said. I see it as being responsible to our event and to the future of 4-wheeling in Moab.

Jeff Stevens
Former V.P. Red Rock 4-Wheelers
President, Moab Friends-For-Wheelin’

 

[UtahFire]

Well put Jeff.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Enough said. Jeff rules!

 

[Cherokeester]

It seems this years safari is going to be very interesting.

Point : There will be many frustrated and angry people. You don't think everybody reads this forum right?

Point : Other trails that are not on the list will be packed with said pissed off people. Fins and Things will be an absolute zoo and that is one trail where the greenies seem to congregate more than others.

Point : Part of the joy of the Safari is watching the obstacles. This will be ended because the non-registered types won't be out there this time. Where will they go? Dump bump and potato salad, if there weren't enough crazies there already. If you ask me there is enough fuel at those two spots for the law to close the shebang anyway.

Point : Change the date on the safari, please!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Seems that one move would solve almost all the issues. The additional people down there for spring break is what is causing most of the overcrowding anyway.

I think the closure thing is a little extreme. I am not opposed to the idea, but it does seem some more thought could have been put into it. Having said that I am sure there has been a lot of work involved in making all the changes. I do appreciate the efforts of everyone involved.