Jeep LS swap for the LJ

[UNSTUCK]

That sounds about right. The cheapest one I ever did was right on $5k, but the owner already had a transmission and t-case assembly. Realistically it was too cheap, as I didn't like the radiator or the wiring he wanted me to use. I also would have only done 1 cat and 2 O2s. Without looking at your price breakdown, what was the cost of the new dash and gauges? Novaks parts can be a bit of a hassle, but I would want to keep the stock dash in place. I don't know if it costs more or less to do that. I'll guess less.

 

[mbryson]

Not sure I'd ever want to know full cost of a swap but it's good to know. It's always the nickel/dime stuff that kills you on a swap. I used as much from my donor as I could and I still spent a fair amount. Yours seems much more enjoyable than my TBI 350 (a swap that's 15-16 years old now). I've considered swapping to an LS but am nervous about the "hidden" costs. You're talking me into just a solid rebuild and possibly some "performance" tuning on my TBI to get to MAYBE 250 HP?

 

[DaveB]

LS Swap Cost

All said and done, I'm at $6300 after deducting the money I got back from selling parts. More than I expected, but I expected that.
Oddly the engine, trans and T case are the cheapest parts of the build. Exhaust was the most expensive partly due to using 2 cats and 4 new O2's. I think I could trim a grand off the next one from mistakes I made and things I learned.

I haven't been brave enough to add up the cost of my LS swap. The small stuff does add up very quickly but not as fast as the big stuff. It also doesn't help that I had everything rebuilt, swapped the front axle and put an Atlas in at the same time.

 

[Bart]

I wish a JK was anywhere close to that cheap. I guess the Buss conversion box to make it all work with the gauges, cruise, and AC is a big part of the cost.

 

[Greg]

I wish a JK was anywhere close to that cheap. I guess the Buss conversion box to make it all work with the gauges, cruise, and AC is a big part of the cost.

Yep, I considered doing an LS in my JKU after learning the engine was shot. $15k minimum, doing it yourself and that was without the engine and transmission costs. 😳

 

[zmotorsports]

Yeah, the GEN III and older versions are quite a bit less expensive, especially with the 4-speed transmissions but still a very good powertrain. I'm blown away by the number of people installing LS2 and other GEN III powertrains into their JK's. To keep it period correct for USEPA certifications you can get by with using them in a 2006 and older but when you get to the JK platform you really can't use anything older than the GEN IV engine family and after 2015 you should be using the GEN V family. GEN IV (LS) and especially GEN V (LT) are not that cheap to do.

I feel I was able to do mine on a pretty good budget doing it all myself and sourcing new parts but definitely not any where near the same price you did yours for, actually closer to double what you did yours for.

Mike

 

[glockman]

That sounds about right. The cheapest one I ever did was right on $5k, but the owner already had a transmission and t-case assembly. Realistically it was too cheap, as I didn't like the radiator or the wiring he wanted me to use. I also would have only done 1 cat and 2 O2s. Without looking at your price breakdown, what was the cost of the new dash and gauges? Novaks parts can be a bit of a hassle, but I would want to keep the stock dash in place. I don't know if it costs more or less to do that. I'll guess less.

Speed Hut gauges were $750 and the bezel was $150. It was a lot but I was totally at a dead end trying to get the stock unit to work. Something was killing the PCI bus and I didn't have the patience to dig through all my wiring to find out what it was.

Yeah, the GEN III and older versions are quite a bit less expensive, especially with the 4-speed transmissions but still a very good powertrain. I'm blown away by the number of people installing LS2 and other GEN III powertrains into their JK's. To keep it period correct for USEPA certifications you can get by with using them in a 2006 and older but when you get to the JK platform you really can't use anything older than the GEN IV engine family and after 2015 you should be using the GEN V family. GEN IV (LS) and especially GEN V (LT) are not that cheap to do.

I feel I was able to do mine on a pretty good budget doing it all myself and sourcing new parts but definitely not any where near the same price you did yours for, actually closer to double what you did yours for.

Mike

You also have close to 2x the horsepower and a significantly newer power train.

 

[zmotorsports]

You also have close to 2x the horsepower and a significantly newer power train.

True, but more importantly it keeps the car USEPA compliant. This is why I don't understand why there are so many people putting the incorrect powertrains into their newer JK's. I know cost is a factor but by doing so they are in essence turning their street legal Jeep into a trailer queen that can only be used off-road. Even many of the "kits" from some vendors have very bespoke wiring harnesses and components which technically make them non-compliant before they even hit the testing station. I can't imagine trying to sell a vehicle that is illegal and how severely it would de-value it, let alone the potential fines involved.

Mike

 

[J-mobzz]

True, but more importantly it keeps the car USEPA compliant. This is why I don't understand why there are so many people putting the incorrect powertrains into their newer JK's. I know cost is a factor but by doing so they are in essence turning their street legal Jeep into a trailer queen that can only be used off-road. Even many of the "kits" from some vendors have very bespoke wiring harnesses and components which technically make them non-compliant before they even hit the testing station. I can't imagine trying to sell a vehicle that is illegal and how severely it would de-value it, let alone the potential fines involved.

Mike

I think a lot of people just don’t care. I recently was vehicle shopping, looking at one I poke my head under it and say ummmm your catalytic converter is missing? The owner as casual as can be. “ oh yeah I cut that out.”
............. I didn’t buy it but he sold it the next day. That shows me he found another person that either didn’t know or didn’t care.

 

[glockman]

True, but more importantly it keeps the car USEPA compliant. This is why I don't understand why there are so many people putting the incorrect powertrains into their newer JK's. I know cost is a factor but by doing so they are in essence turning their street legal Jeep into a trailer queen that can only be used off-road. Even many of the "kits" from some vendors have very bespoke wiring harnesses and components which technically make them non-compliant before they even hit the testing station. I can't imagine trying to sell a vehicle that is illegal and how severely it would de-value it, let alone the potential fines involved.

Mike

I know that federally this is a crime, but so is putting any aftermarket exhaust on any vehicle as I understand it.
There are far more places that don't do emissions testing than do. If I lived in one of those places, I wouldn't be worried about it. I still don't understand why they don't have an acceptable level of measurable emissions for vehicle X. You put a V8 in and it meets that level of emissions, great. Thanks for adhering to the standard. The whole process you have explained about not even being able to modify a wiring harness is ludicrous. If you make a vehicle cleaner or no less clean by measurable emissions, why would they care about anything other that what comes out the tail pipe. Its just more bull shit government bureaucracy.

 

[mbryson]

I know that federally this is a crime, but so is putting any aftermarket exhaust on any vehicle as I understand it.
There are far more places that don't do emissions testing than do. If I lived in one of those places, I wouldn't be worried about it. I still don't understand why they don't have an acceptable level of measurable emissions for vehicle X. You put a V8 in and it meets that level of emissions, great. Thanks for adhering to the standard. The whole process you have explained about not even being able to modify a wiring harness is ludicrous. If you make a vehicle cleaner or no less clean by measurable emissions, why would they care about anything other that what comes out the tail pipe. Its just more bull shit government bureaucracy.

I've always wondered same but I'd suggest that it has to do with emissions device lobbyists and/or environmental lobbyists. Measured tailpipe emissions would be WAY to simple and logical for a government agency. How could a politician get "stock" or have a relative acquire a high paying job at a mfg with something so simple and logical?

 

[DaveB]

The first engine swap I did made my 86 XJ pass tailpipe test emissions without any problem. The next swap I did made the tailpipe test read 0 on almost every test. The testers spent an hour re-testing it because they couldn't believe a Jeep could run that clean. I didn't explain to them that they set the tester up for what was in the Jeep when it was made which was a carburetor. The fuel injection system was so far below the carburetor their tester wouldn't show the numbers. The county then changed requirements for engine swaps and I had to go to the county testing facility for testing. I never had trouble passing the tests there and had lots of conversations with them over what I did. The guys I talked to said they had no problem with people putting in a newer cleaner engine as long as they kept the emissions controls. They didn't like people putting in older engines into newer vehicles. This is one of the main reasons I drive old Jeeps with newer engines.

 

[zmotorsports]

I know that federally this is a crime, but so is putting any aftermarket exhaust on any vehicle as I understand it.
There are far more places that don't do emissions testing than do. If I lived in one of those places, I wouldn't be worried about it. I still don't understand why they don't have an acceptable level of measurable emissions for vehicle X. You put a V8 in and it meets that level of emissions, great. Thanks for adhering to the standard. The whole process you have explained about not even being able to modify a wiring harness is ludicrous. If you make a vehicle cleaner or no less clean by measurable emissions, why would they care about anything other that what comes out the tail pipe. Its just more bull shit government bureaucracy.

I'm not disagreeing with your logic but the way the laws are written by adding a "hot rod" wiring harness it is in fact enough to make a vehilce non-compliant with USEPA guidelines. IF the referees were to do their job correctly they shouldn't let it pass on a 1996 or newer vehicle. Luckily most referees or emissions techs are clueless and too lazy to really do their jobs thoroughly. This is good and bad. Good for those who want to sneak their vehicles through emissions testing but bad because it floods the market with non-compliant vehicles which really devalue those that are done to full compliancy.

The reasoning and proof I used was just what you referred to and that was the vehicle I acquired the powertrain from was in fact certified as a complete USEPA compliant "package" when it was certified by GM. That is why I had to use all GM components pertaining to the engine performance and especially the emissions system(s). The wiring harness is in fact a key component in that if you read the certifications that GM submitted to the USEPA.

I've been doing engine swaps for over 30 years now and this one has been by far the most intricate to keep it all USEPA compliant. My 1986 Suburban that put an EFI'd 7.4 liter engine in out of a 1991 GMT chassis was a piece of cake compared to this one. The only thing the referees were confused by at the testing station was the EFI throttle body instead of a carburetor, other than that it looked factory.

To each their own and you did a great job on your swap but my goal was to have an OEM level swap that I could hand the keys to anyone in any 50-states and have it be perfectly compliant. I realize not everyone feels that way nor do they care, that's just how I approached if from day one.

Mike

 

[UNSTUCK]

Like what was said earlier, it shouldn't matter what's going on under the hood. As long as the smoke is as clean as it needs to be for that vehicle all is good. Most of the time the EPA should be thanking jeep owners that swap to LS engines as they run cleaner to begin with.

 

[zmotorsports]

Most of the time the EPA should be thanking jeep owners that swap to LS engines as they run cleaner to begin with.

100% agree. I tried explaining that to the referee when I was researching several years ago. I told him that I can watch the little 3.8 liter go into power enrichment mode and dump the fuel into the engine where the larger V8 is going to sip fuel and lumber along under full fuel control. He said that didn't matter. Again, I got one that was lazy and didn't want to really debate the issue becuase I knew the USEPA guidelines better than he did.

I'm sorry. I don't mean to sidetrack this great LS swap thread.

I'll refrain from any further comments as it is each of our own responsibilities to research ourselves because ultimately we are the only ones responsible for our rides.




Mike

 

[J-mobzz]

I think this thread needs a good burnout video.

 

[glockman]

After a couple shakedown runs it became obvious that the stock shifter was not going to cut it. The issue is there is not enough travel to get to 1st gear, which is a much when wheeling. I may have been able to cut new gates and adjust the Lokar sector shaft arm but I wasn't too keen on the result. Plus the stock shifter cable runs through the firewall and has to be routed between the head and the firewall and for some reason I just didn't like where it was routed.

So I ordered a Lokar Part# LOK-CO4L60EEXMB. I know there are a lot of people that don't like the Lokar shifters because you can't visibly see what gear you are in. I looked at the Winters and they seem very difficult to pull off a clean install.
I'll see how much of an issue it is not having a visible gear indicator with the Lokar and address it but building a brain box that uses an IC logic gate to read the neutral safety switch on the trans and decode the truth table. It looks pretty easy and it's about $5 worth of electronics. I'll likely output that to a Dakota digital LED indicator.

On to the install.
The old



Removed that and had a big hole.


Built a filler panel and mounted the shifter to it.


At this point I realized that the 48" cable that comes with the shifter is not going to work. I will have to route the cable around the back of the transfer case and need a few more inches. So I ordered a 60" cable and am on hold till it arrives.

 

[Bart]

I have only used the Winters/Art Carr, but know many that have used Lokar. I actually like the looks of the Lokar better and will be looking forward to hearing your review.

 

[glockman]

I have only used the Winters/Art Carr, but know many that have used Lokar. I actually like the looks of the Lokar better and will be looking forward to hearing your review.

The Winters are super simple and I can see why people like them. I wish they made a more compact version that would tuck into a TJ console. I'll be sure to update, the cable came last night.

 

[glockman]

Got the shifter buttoned up but the transfer case is leaking again. Here is my solution, if it leaks again, I bow out.