Need Expedition planning/estimating help...

[Cody]

The difficult part of organizing a big trip is getting everyone else involved in the planning process and on the same page. If someone told me to just plan it out and let them know when to show up and how much $$ to bring, I would have it done in about 2 hours and then go out for beers.

also, a note for your preparations. A group of 10 vehicles is only as fast as the slowest vehicle. I've done a handful of 4-5 day 200+ dirt mile expeditions in the last year and the times we've had groups of 10 ish there was always at least one rig that cost us a couple hours each day because they couldn't keep up with the pace. If you have 10 inexperienced people in 10 vehicles they aren't familiar with, don't plan on covering a ton of ground and getting places in time to set up an overly elaborate and unnecessary outdoor kitchen. Or just send the “camp hands” up ahead to get everything set up for you lol.


For the record "mate", the reason you're getting such a poor response is partly your condescending attitude and partly because it's pretty evident you have no idea what you're doing and you shouldn't expect us to hold your hand through the process because you don't have the necessary experience to make this endeavor successful.

 

[kevowheeler]

Oh come on guys, he's just trying to make a buck! It's not like he's asking us to do all the planning so he can charge his rich eastern clients top dollar. If you ask him really nice like, he might just let you be one of the camp hands for $4.15/hour!
What a git!

At this point I'm only paying an EMT/First Aid responder. Camp helpers get free room & board , all expenses paid, great scenery, lots of fresh air and exercise.

 

[Cody]

out of curiosity though, who do you have underwriting the insurance plan for your commercial trip? Because of the BLM regs that are going into effect this year, the grand cherokee event I help organize will now have to carry insurance for every participant, and we're having a difficult time finding someone that has a policy for such an event that is affordable.

 

[kevowheeler]

Hey Cody, I appreciate those notes. We'll be keeping it to about 4 vehicles (unless each one really wants to be a driver).

I agree that when leading a group there's a lot of time just spent training and educating the drivers. I like to cover the basics in a small meeting, then when we're on the trail I teach them over the radio as we take on various obstacles. I know what it's like to get a straggler or 2. I think a good way to handle that is to have a 'tail-gunner' following up the pack to keep folks on the trail.

I think the most difficult part in leading groups in wilderness settings is the constant changing dynamics of the group (let alone the weather, equipment, and trail conditions). It's also the most rewarding part when you see them loving the TRIP!

 

[kevowheeler]

Is there such a thing as going pre-commercial?

Send me a link regarding the new BLM
insurance policies.

 

[Cody]

I think each field office is different, but the Moab field office previously allowed for non-commercial but organized groups of 50 vehicles or less to use the trails. I believe the recent update is for no more than 15 vehicles per trail in an organized group. I'm almost certain any commercial operation needs both a permit from the BLM and an insurance policy covering every vehicle that is within the group. Part of the permit process is funding an environmental impact study for your group---or at least it used to.

My GSW group ends up at about 45 vehicles, but we are non-profit and volunteer organized so the BLM hasn't had any problems with us. Because of the new changes, we have decided to play it safe and not risk being labled as a rogue group of 4-wheelers unwilling to comply with the rules. So, we're trying to get the insurance part figured out so we can get an exact cost of what we need to charge for registration for what has historically been a free event.

 

[Brett]

Tried joining this, but everything still say's private. Dose a mod have to approve me first for me to see the threads?

Yes

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Is there such a thing as going pre-commercial?

Send me a link regarding the new BLM
insurance policies.

Not really, once you start charging any monetary value for your trip, permits and insurance are required. As of today most regions of Utah can have gatherings up to 49 people without a permit, as long as they are not commercial (as your is), future RMP's will bounce that level from 10-25 depending on the local and the trail. The future RMP decisions don't really affect you as a commercial vendor, permits are needed as of today in every BLM and likely Forest district in the state.

 

[Kris K]

Yes

Ok thanks, i'll just have to wait.

 

[kevowheeler]

If you have 10 inexperienced people in 10 vehicles they aren't familiar with, don't plan on covering a ton of ground and getting places in time to set up an overly elaborate and unnecessary outdoor kitchen.

Just to clarify: I never said "elaborate and unnecessary" when referring to my kitchen set-up. On the contrary - I go with a very spartan kitchen, but I know that things like, "I use an all-propane set up with my lantern, stove, etc." is actually a helpful statement, and at the same time, not revealing any 'trade secrets'.

Thanks for your concern, though, you know... regarding the camp kitchen and all. lol.

For the record "mate", the reason you're getting such a poor response is partly your condescending attitude and partly because it's pretty evident you have no idea what you're doing and you shouldn't expect us to hold your hand through the process because you don't have the necessary experience to make this endeavor successful.

Sorry I came across that way. I'm kind of feeling that vibe coming from you.

I'll stop asking for advice from you now. You really don't even have a clue about my experience level. I just wanted some advice - obviously you're not the person that's willing to give any.

 

[kevowheeler]

Thanks Kurt, for the info.

That helps me for the estimating part.

It may end up that this trip will be a 'non-profit
outing with volunteers.' No profit, but everything will hopefully be covered for expenses (including insurance if needed).

I'll do more research regarding the laws for groups and insurance. Most likely our group of 10 - 12 people will drop to 8 - 10 for the final count. That might keep us under the range of 'insured' and into the 'not insured' type of group.

 

[Paul R]

Thanks Kurt, for the info.

That helps me for the estimating part.

It may end up that this trip will be a 'non-profit
outing with volunteers.' No profit, but everything will hopefully be covered for expenses (including insurance if needed).

I'll do more research regarding the laws for groups and insurance. Most likely our group of 10 - 12 people will drop to 8 - 10 for the final count. That might keep us under the range of 'insured' and into the 'not insured' type of group.

No offense but it all depends on how your company is set up, just because you don't make a profit does not mean that you are a not for profit organization! If you are charging money you will almost surely need insurance regardless of how many drivers you have. Heck even if you lose money on the whole deal you will still likely be classified as a for profit org.

Have you met the people you plan to guide before? I personally hope they are friends of yours that know what they are going to be putting up with...

 

[kevowheeler]

Have you met the people you plan to guide before? I personally hope they are friends of yours that know what they are going to be putting up with...

Excuse me, what did you mean by that?

These are customers, most of whom I haven't met. I've already led trips with friends and I know how it can get.

I've enjoyed all your helpful business advice.

Thanks.

 

[SAMI]

and I know how it can get.

By "it", do you mean you on your high horse?

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...I'll do more research regarding the laws for groups and insurance. Most likely our group of 10 - 12 people will drop to 8 - 10 for the final count. That might keep us under the range of 'insured' and into the 'not insured' type of group.

You really need to bring yourself up to speed on the permit and insurance process. Keep in mind these things can take months to get approved so for trips your planning for spring 09', start today. Keep in mind they have the right to charge you for the research and legwork they do on your permit through the Cost Recovery Program, not likely in your case but I know of more than one commercial event that was canceled due to this (the GGG in NV got a $4k bill for their single weekend even permit :sick:, they canceled the event). All of the permit systems for the so. Utah areas are in a state of change right now with their new RMP's being released, in every case the permit process actually became a bit more restrictive but again varies with district and region within the districts.

You might find that a permit is not needed for every district, while an insurance policy of some sort likely is and frankly you would be insane to lead a group without insurance covering yourself, you would be one accident away from bankruptcy. There are insurance agencies that cover this type of activity, though expect it to be rather expensive as your now in the genre of skydiving, river rafting, climbing, etc... high risk activities.

 

[Herzog]

Please keep this thread on track with either helpful or insightful information. Leave the personal attacks out.

 

[Houndoc]

Always entertaining to come into testy little discussions.

A few "facts" that never came up, but that I wonder about, include:

1) area and type (esp difficulty) of trails to be run.
2) off-road experience of the guide compared to those trails
3) experince of the clients
4) business experience of the guide.

Reading the entire thing does strike me as odd. Our guide friend claims to be well experinced and prepared, but asks for very general help (I would expected he would have gotten great advice had he wanted trail info or something similar instead of basic business 101 stuff).

And despite the claim of expereince, mr guide does not seem to know about permit and insurance requirements.

So, what exactly is your experience and knowledge level? Are you going to be able to take these clients on a safe and enjoyable outing? Don't get in over your head!

 

[Cody]

It may end up that this trip will be a 'non-profit
outing with volunteers.' No profit, but everything will hopefully be covered for expenses (including insurance if needed).

That might keep us under the range of 'insured' and into the 'not insured' type of group.

hmmm, where to start.

OK, first if you're planning on setting it up as a group of friends that you just happened to organize an expedition for, then I suppose there is very little the BLM can/would do to prevent a small group like that. HOWEVER, if you plan on going out there with 10 people you don't know and you don't have ANY insurance, you open yourself up to a metric ****-ton of liability. If someone gets injured/lost/dead they can come after you, and since you probably have already positioned yourself as a "professional" guide that will have accepted money for a service, there is little you will be able to do to defend yourself in court (not to mention that odds are these people can afford much better lawyers than you ) regardless of it being an "official" commercial expedition. The court won't care that you didn't 'officially' obtain the permits and insurance, in fact they'll probably drop the hammer twice as hard and you'll end up getting it from the gov't in one end and your "customers" in the other. Not savvy business. Don't get in the habit of trying to sidestep the law if you are a new business owner.

2nd, if you set up an LLC or some other business entity (like you should) and run all of the money and setup through that to prevent your personal assets from being at risk, then you are already commercial and will need permits. Just because you break even doesn't mean you are "not for profit". You will need permits, and insurance and should willingly pay them since the government is allowing you to make a profit using land that it manages.

You could in theory set up a non-profit organization, but there is a ton of red tape involved in that process and from the sound of things you're not particularly gifted at the due diligence portion of the process.

Your best bet is to establish an LLC, get all of the requisite business licenses, tax licenses, and accounts set up and run all of the finances through that. The more you can treat the company's money as separate from your own, the more difficult it is for the court to pierce the corporate veil and come after your personal assets. People are litigious these days and seldom take accountability for their own f-ups--since you are offering to take responsibility for them in the back country, you better take steps to minimize your own exposure to liability.

 

[kevowheeler]

Thanks guys.

I'm already aware of the need for licensing and insurance. And thanks for reminding me to get all the business/legal end of it taken care of. I'll have to figure out all the fees and see how that looks. I haven't kept up on the latest laws, so thanks Kurt for mentioning the new changes.

My experience level for 4WD expeditions is not anywhere near what some of you have I'm sure - but I've guided several multi-day 4WD trips (in the Needles & Maze Districts) and have led some guys through short trails like Fins-n-Things and various Jeep trails around the Escalante area. I'm not into extreme stuff, but I've driven solo through Lockhart Basin several times (once I even rode the whole thing on my mtn. bike!). I've got several decades of offroad driving experience. My experience in leading groups into wilderness areas is less than a dozen trips (backpacking, desert trekking and mountaineering). I'm still learning guys, and I enjoy it.

To answer Houndoc's question: Most of the clients on this spring trip will have little or no experience in driving rugged 4x4 trails. I train the drivers as we go (as I stated in an earlier post), however, in the future I can see that I'll probably be better off with experienced drivers for these types of outings.

When I mentioned 'non-profit' earlier, I didn't mean that I planned on running a non-profit business. Instead, I should have used the term 'free' service. As in 'no charge'.

I'll still study up on the current laws and license requirements. Thanks.

 

[Houndoc]

Hope the plan and trip goes well.

My main thoughts are to pick the trail carefully, recognizing the skill limitations of the drivers. Plenty of great back country to enjoy without getting into unsafe drving for new drivers.

And enjoy RME. Lots of helpful people here!