Need help with a diesel engine.

[crimsonride]

Hey guys.

First of all I am diesel-stupid. I understand the basic concept of how a diesel works vs a gas engine but I don't know how to trouble shoot them or "listen" to what they need. Until recently I've never owned a diesel....now I do and I have no idea what they're trying to tell me.

The immediate problem I have is with a Genie S45 man lift. I think it is called a Deutz 3 cyl very simple diesel engine.

Anyway. The issue is that it won't start without starting fluid (I know, bad for diesel engines). The lift was brought here from Texas and immediately had a hard time starting. The guys on the job changed the fuel filter and water separator and got it to start with starting fluid. You had to hold it in high idle for a while before it would idle. Eventually it started to idle rough and low and eventually died. Then it would no longer idle. It would just sputter and die. The only way to keep it running was to hold it in high idle which they did for the remainder fo the day. Now it won't start and run with or without starting fluid..... actually it will start and run periodically but it won't stay running. It eventually just dies out. Half of the fuel was from Texas and we topped it off with winterized diesel. It has ran through about half a tank of that. Recently I looked at the fuel filter and saw the fuel was cloudy or milky. I'm not sure if this is a result of it being cold or what. It is still liquid and not "gelled" up.

Any ideas or tips? We are trying to get a job completed up above Heber with this thing before I can bring it down and give it the love it deserves.

 

[Greg]

Does it have any kind of intake or combustion heater, like glow plugs or intake heater? It should have something to get it fired up. I've been around plenty of Deutz engines at work, but don't remember if they are heated.

I'd drain all the fuel, change the fuel filter (be sure to fill the fuel filter!!) and probably change the water separator if it has one. Add some Power Service 911 to the fresh fuel and once it's running normally, keep putting the regular Power Service in with the fuel.

Putting a block heater on it will help a lot, you can buy magnetic ones. Plug it in for an hour or 2 before you need to start it.

 

[jeeper]

Spark plugs bad??


Sorry.. not much help from me

 

[BlueWolfFab]

I've been around plenty of Deutz engines at work, but don't remember if they are heated.

Our smaller asphalt pavers have 3 cyl Deutz engines and none of them had any kind of glowplugs or intake heaters or anything, but in their application on an asphalt paver they don't really get used in cold temps anyways so that doesn't necessarily mean that this one doesn't have any heaters.

Gelling isn't necessarily "gelled or not gelled" there is a gradient to it, ranging from small crystallization to basically a solid.

If your fuel is looking cloudy like that I'd definitely say your issues are from the fuel being effected by the cold and you need to add some kind of supplement to it. Personally I favored Lucas fuel treatment, but the industry standard used by most contractors is as Greg stated, Power Service "911" to get it going in emergencies (basically just a more easily combustible fluid, and de-gels the diesel) pour it directly into the main large fuel filter.

 

[crimsonride]

I should have told you guys it does this even after it is all warmed up. We could have it running all day, kill it and then it won't start. It does have glow plugs but no intake heater as far as I can tell. No radiator just an oil cooler. This morning, after a LOT of work, we got it started and let it run for about an hour. Killed it and wouldn't restart. Thanks for the tip on the block heater. I didn't know they had magnetic ones.

I'm wondering if it could be the injectors or pump? Seems like it's not getting the fuel it deserves. Wish I knew more about these things.

 

[crimsonride]

Spark plugs bad??


Sorry.. not much help from me

Ha ha.....yeah.....they're so bad they're non existent!

 

[Greg]

I should have told you guys it does this even after it is all warmed up. We could have it running all day, kill it and then it won't start. It does have glow plugs but no intake heater as far as I can tell. No radiator just an oil cooler. This morning, after a LOT of work, we got it started and let it run for about an hour. Killed it and wouldn't restart. Thanks for the tip on the block heater. I didn't know they had magnetic ones.

I'm wondering if it could be the injectors or pump? Seems like it's not getting the fuel it deserves. Wish I knew more about these things.

If that's the case, it could be a lack of compression... Rings may be shot. Any idea how many hours are on it?

It could be fueling problems... hard to say.

 

[BlueWolfFab]

My dad is our head mechanic, I just called him and told him what it's doing, he thinks it's probably your fuel shutoff solenoid isn't tripping with the key-on position like it's supposed to. He says there's a pull-side to it that's supposed to come on and basically prime the fuel system, but where you can start it with starting fluid, it will run, and then when you shut it off again it's not retripping that solenoid to prime the system.

We always took out Deutz engines to DESCO in SLC when they needed something outside of what our in-house mechanics would do, so he recommends them if you need to have it looked at.

 

[Jesser04]

have you ran a tank of fuel through it since it came from Texas? Could the fuel be jelling? It looks damn cold in that picture.

 

[crimsonride]

It has about 2000 hrs on it. I would think it would be fine.

I need to research how to diagnose these engines. Compression check, injectors etc. I guess it needs like 3000 lbs of fuel pressure? The manual says injection pressure is 4351 psi and injector opening is 3626.....not sure how to check that or what to do with it?

My dad is our head mechanic, I just called him and told him what it's doing, he thinks it's probably your fuel shutoff solenoid isn't tripping with the key-on position like it's supposed to. He says there's a pull-side to it that's supposed to come on and basically prime the fuel system, but where you can start it with starting fluid, it will run, and then when you shut it off again it's not retripping that solenoid to prime the system.

We always took out Deutz engines to DESCO in SLC when they needed something outside of what our in-house mechanics would do, so he recommends them if you need to have it looked at.

Thanks! That's good info. I guess the owner (We are supposed to be purchasing this lift after this job so it's kind of half ours and half theirs at the moment) bought some sort of starter relay.... maybe that is the same thing. I research this and see if I can find a way to test it. The odd thing is that we can get it to run, it's just extremely difficult and requires the right timing of starting fluid and the right amount of baby-ing to get it going.

 

[crimsonride]

have you ran a tank of fuel through it since it came from Texas? Could the fuel be jelling? It looks damn cold in that picture.

It had a half tank when we got it, topped it off here and have ran half way through that tank. It's in Timber Lakes up above Heber. Honestly it's not that cold up there. It's warmer than it is down here in the valley. We ran a propane forced air heater on it for about an hour before we started it so it was nice and toasty before we attempted the start. The fuel turned milky but was still rather liquid.... didn't seem to have thickened up at all. I could shake the fuel filter and watch the air bubbles bounce around inside.

 

[crimsonride]

My dad is our head mechanic, I just called him and told him what it's doing, he thinks it's probably your fuel shutoff solenoid isn't tripping with the key-on position like it's supposed to. He says there's a pull-side to it that's supposed to come on and basically prime the fuel system, but where you can start it with starting fluid, it will run, and then when you shut it off again it's not retripping that solenoid to prime the system.

We always took out Deutz engines to DESCO in SLC when they needed something outside of what our in-house mechanics would do, so he recommends them if you need to have it looked at.

Would this solenoid run an electric fuel pump or something or would it just be a mechanical solenoid to block off the fuel? .....maybe that's a dumb question, but I am dumb so those are my favorite kind of questions.

 

[BlueWolfFab]

Would this solenoid run an electric fuel pump or something or would it just be a mechanical solenoid to block off the fuel? .....maybe that's a dumb question, but I am dumb so those are my favorite kind of questions.

The fuel shutoffs on those do have a mechanical lever that the solenoid literally holds open with electric actuation, but after that lever I'm not sure exactly how it works. I'll talk to him more tonight and see if he would be fine with giving you guys his number, I'd bet he would. He's a genius at these sort of things ha.

 

[Tonkaman]

No help here, but that’s why we rent all our equipment instead of buy. I LOVE calling a mechanic to fix things. I usually have $15,000/month in equipment rentals, but everything works when I need it to

 

[Greg]

The fuel shutoffs on those do have a mechanical lever that the solenoid literally holds open with electric actuation, but after that lever I'm not sure exactly how it works. I'll talk to him more tonight and see if he would be fine with giving you guys his number, I'd bet he would. He's a genius at these sort of things ha.

If it's like the engines I've seen, it should have an electric switch that pushes the shutoff valve. Usually the shutoff valve is on/by the injection pump and you can see how it would need to push on the shutoff to get it to work... same goes for starting.

I could see how it could be the shutoff not working properly. With only 2000 hrs the engine & compression should be fine.

 

[BlueWolfFab]

Just showed my dad your pics, showed him the bottom two first and he said from what he can tell from the pics the fuel shutoff solenoid is going to be either one of these. He says it is setup a bit differently than our asphalt paver engines so it's hard to tell on your pics.


He still thinks it's that or something along those lines.

But as soon as he scrolled up and saw your inline filter he says you should definitely try some "diesel 911" in the fuel filter first, especially with it having a half tank of Texas fuel in it as it wouldn't have any winter additives in that fuel.