New Moab area trail maps?

[EZRhino]

Couple things in here make me go hmmmm........tell me what you think.

EZ




http://166.70.44.66/2004/Jul/07072004/utah/181596.asp

By Lisa Church
Special to The Tribune

MOAB -- A new map, directing tourists to backcountry trails geared to their interests, is being developed for the Moab area in southeastern Utah.
The map will show well-known backcountry routes, and suggest suitable trails for hiking, mountain biking or off-road motorized travel. It is being developed by officials from Grand County, Moab, and state and federal public lands agencies.
The maps also will contain rules and tips for backcountry travel, camping, parking and safety information, and guidelines for using non-street-legal vehicles, such as those modified for "rock crawling."
Grand County Councilman Rex Tanner emphasized the value of integrating into one free document all the information visitors might need to legally and safely enjoy Grand County's backcountry.
"The information is available now, but it's not in one place," Tanner said. "This will make a consistent message going out to the visitors."
He hopes the guidelines and route recommendations could reduce environmental and safety problems by as much as 70 percent.
"I don't think anything we do is going to be a 100-percent solution. But if we could cut this stuff down, it is going to go a long way," Tanner said.
Some officials, however, are hesitant to create one map that designates trails for such a specific use as rock crawling.
Maggie Wyatt, director of the U.S. Bureau of Land Management's (BLM) Moab Field Office, said brochures and maps are already available through the BLM and the Moab Information Center.
"The word that appears most often on [rock-crawling] Web sites is 'carnage,' " Wyatt said. "And they're not just talking about carnage to vehicles. We have a problem with this."
Rock crawling has steadily gained popularity in the Moab area, and Tanner said the group "would be remiss" to not steer rock-crawler enthusiasts to specific areas in an attempt to minimize damage.
"It's a big point of contention. It might be a good time to identify some places to direct them to," he said. "We need to give them an outlet."
The question of how to pay for the map, which some estimate will be distributed to as many as 250,000 visitors each year, is still under discussion. Depending on the cost, group members might consider including advertisements.
lchurch@citlink.net

 

[Herzog]

Some officials, however, are hesitant to create one map that designates trails for such a specific use as rock crawling.
Maggie Wyatt, director of the U.S. Bureau of Land Management's (BLM) Moab Field Office, said brochures and maps are already available through the BLM and the Moab Information Center.
"The word that appears most often on [rock-crawling] Web sites is 'carnage,' " Wyatt said. "And they're not just talking about carnage to vehicles. We have a problem with this."

That is complete bullshit. And yes, it is just another article by our friend Lisa Church to spew more hidden propaganda against us 4 wheelers.

 

[Rick B]

I don't understand what you think is BS. It comes across as you having a personal beef with the person credited with writing the story, which is an almost word for word copy of the story that appeared in the Moab paper last week, written by the same person. It does appear that the comments from Maggie Wyatt have been added in more detail than they were in the local paper, but the additional comments are dead on. There are far too many people who only want to tear up the land. It also proves something that I've long suspected, the land management agencies look at sites like this one & see what people are talking about.

I believe it is generally a good idea, but IMO it is too generalized and only gives directions to the trail heads. What I think is needed is better maps of actual trails, but the powers that be don't want to do that because they feel it is already covered by the private sector. So if you want more detailed maps of trails you have to buy them. I guess I should get busy & write a trail guide book or start producing trail maps.

 

[Moab Beauty]

Well yeah Rick since you are from around that area, you should get on it. We are all waiting...

 

[troutbum]

I don't understand what you think is BS.

There are far too many people who only want to tear up the land.

It also proves something that I've long suspected, the land management agencies look at sites like this one & see what people are talking about.

Well for starters that our favorite thing is to inflict carnage and not just to our vehicles Seems you share this view point based on the second comment above?? I have never met anyone rockcrawling who 'wanted' to tear up land. Sure there are some that don't care, but I don't think that anyone feels like tearing up the land is the goal??

I am also sure that the BLM is checking web forums. Maggie Wyatt if you are reading this you should spend a little less time perfecting your one liners

As for Lisa church she is far from objective on this issue....

 

[Herzog]

I don't understand what you think is BS. It comes across as you having a personal beef with the person credited with writing the story, which is an almost word for word copy of the story that appeared in the Moab paper last week, written by the same person. It does appear that the comments from Maggie Wyatt have been added in more detail than they were in the local paper, but the additional comments are dead on. There are far too many people who only want to tear up the land. It also proves something that I've long suspected, the land management agencies look at sites like this one & see what people are talking about.

I believe it is generally a good idea, but IMO it is too generalized and only gives directions to the trail heads. What I think is needed is better maps of actual trails, but the powers that be don't want to do that because they feel it is already covered by the private sector. So if you want more detailed maps of trails you have to buy them. I guess I should get busy & write a trail guide book or start producing trail maps.

I'm not saying the plan about the Map is bs, I'm saying the carnage referencing to land abuse is bs.

The map is a great idea and will probably help people understand what they can and can't do out there on the trails. What is bs is the fact that their rebuttle for the map is that we relate the carnage to land and not our own equipment.

Sorry, I should have clarified in my previous post.

 

[EZRhino]

Ditto 'Zog.

I've never heard anyone reference 'carnage' with anything other than breaking parts. That quote is moronic.

EZ

 

[Rick B]

I guess you don't read other forums much. I see a lot of comments & photos in them that leave no doubt that the posters get off on tearing up the land, or have run across others who feel that way. There are several threads on this forum that deal with individuals who tear up the environment, the one that specifically comes to mind is from a couple of weeks ago, something about "oxygen thief of the day" or something like that. There is no doubt in my mind that a significant number of off road users don't care enough about the land they're using to bother learning what is & isn't acceptable, all I have to do is go out on any of the public lands that surround my home to see plenty of evidence to support it. From my perspective Ms. Wyatt's quoted comments are dead on accurate, I also suspect that more than 90% of what she actually said wasn't even used. Having even one person who thinks it's OK to trash the land is unacceptable. Bitching that the land management agencies have keyed on the fact that these people exist makes you appear to be one of them.

As for Ms. Church, I can only judge her by what I've seen of her work. the stories she has in the local paper are not blatantly anti ORV. They generally seem to present the facts as they are known. Letters to the editor often are though. If you have a problem with the truth being presented perhaps you should be dedicating your efforts to changing the negative but true facts by doing everything possible to put a stop to people who tear up the land.

 

[EZRhino]

Hmmmm interesting perspective. I never associated "carnage" with people purposely tearing up mother earth. The oxygen theives driving in the lake were more likely than not doing it because it looked fun, not because they were intentionally trying to break the law, create erosion, etc. I guess in my mind there is a difference between doing in on purpose and doing it out of pure ignorance. Unfortunately the results are the same. Either way people need to be punished for it.

EZ

 

[troutbum]

It has been my experience that anytime people or their intentions are demonized it is the result of someone pushing an agenda and or a weak argument. I do read other forums and I read the post you are talking about.

You sound like SUWA when you demonize your fellow off road enthusiasts. I saw nothing in the thread you reference to lead me to believe that either the 4wheeler or the bronco found pleasure in tearing up the land Insinuating they do so only plays on peoples emotions and draws attention away from more actionable issues like driver education.

I would venture that most of these occurrences are because people fail to educate themselves on ORV laws/regs.

One thing I have seen that is helpful elsewhere is bow hunting. If you want to hunt the extended season in the Wasatch front you need to take a course and test. It is all online and consists of educating hunters that the continuation of these hunts depends on hunters willingness to follow the regs and to use good ethical judgment. I would love to see a similar program instituted for OHV registrations. Might be nice to hand out something similar at the pay station in AF canyon.

 

[iceaxe]

guess you don't read other forums much. I see a lot of comments & photos in them that leave no doubt that the posters get off on tearing up the land, or have run across others who feel that way.

Rick B; As far as your example of that happening on our forum, You must not be as think as you drunk you are because that thread was not people on this forum bragging about carnage they caused to land or catching people bragging about carnage to land, it was completely the opposite, in fact people on this forum who witnessed a common abuse by other uneducated people at a remote and unsigned/unfenced otherwise inviting location and then our forum members upon witnessing this activity educated the misguided souls at personal risk. kudos to them for doing it! Are we supposed to keep it a secret if we catch someone who "feels that way" (highly questionable [plenty of doubt] that they "felt that way") in the act? If so how can we educate them? You say we should do everything we can to stop it from happening, but you just harked on a thread about RMErs doing everything they can to stop it from happening! see the irony in your posts?

Give a real example of other forums causing WYatts statement to be true please!
I'd love to log in and get up on a soapbox! Otherwise I'll continue to side with Herzog and EZ, that it's a BS statement.

 

[iceaxe]

Oh yeah, as for the new Map. I have mixed feelings about it.

I'm not a big fan of the San Rafeal map, has lots of great info but came accross as convieniently un-detailed and somewhat abstract to me, I got the impression details were omitted on purpose.

This Moab map sounds like it will be the same type of thing.

 

[troutbum]

Hey Gomer Pyle,

And don't ever tell me I'm SUWA in person or your likely to leave with a bloody lip.

EZ

Take it easy killer, I was not talking to you. I was responding to rick who responded directly to my earlier post. I should have used quotes, but I thought it was clear.

If you re-read the thread with that in mind, I think you will find that you and I were saying the basically the same thing...

 

[EZRhino]

Ok, let's all take a breath here (me too). We're all on the same side.


I would certainly hope that people aren't purposly and intentionally trying to destroy the surroundings via their (bad) driving habits. Calling this "carnage" is inappropriate. Let's keep it refering to parts only. In fact, the whole phrase is pretty negative.


EZ

 

[BLH]

I Like the idea, agree for most part about there reasoning. The main question I have is who is going to decide what is listed and if they get input for general public first. All have to ask around bit when I'm down there for the Labor Day Camp-out.

 

[Rick B]

Ok, haven't been able to get back here for a while.

The carnage being referred to says nothing about anyone particularly enjoying it or bragging about it. It simply happens, and the BLM is very concerned about the fact that it does. There are those who do enjoy it and brag about it, there are many more who do it out of ignorance. However, there is absolutely no excuse for ignorance, the information is easily available to educate, the vast majority of people won't (or can't be bothered) spend some time learning what is & isn't acceptable or even how to determine where the trail actually is. The carnage I refer to & I'm increasingly bothered by, is the amount of off trail travel I see evidence of around my home. For instance the new illegal route that has appeared at the waterfall on Poison Spider Mesa, 3 months ago I noticed where one or two vehicles had climbed up what is obviously a more difficult place, but is completely off the trail & goes directly through one of the desert aquatic habitats. Two days ago this is now nearly as heavily used as the actual route of the trail. Now either RR4W or the BLM will have to go up there & paint on the rock "NO ROUTE" like they did in several other places, and even that won't keep some asshats from driving there anyway. Of the 4 places that was done on PSM last fall only one doesn't have tire marks over the top of the paint today & that place has a bypass going around the rock where it was painted.

I believe calling it carnage is totally appropriate; car'nage (noun) 1. Flesh of slain animals or men. 2. Great destruction of life, as in battle; bloodshed; slaughter; massacre; murder; havoc. Since uncontrolled cross country travel causes destruction of life (trees & other plants, various mammals, reptiles and invertibrates) and creates havoc I'd say that carnage is a very appropriate word. I'm sorry for anyone who finds it offensive, but if it fits...

I guess it was inevitable that someone would insinuate I'm a SUWA member, or a Sierra Club member, etc. It never fails when someone like me tries to point out that some of the things they ***** about are true. It's always easier to demonize someone who doesn't seem to agree with you by accusing them of being part of the radical opposition, and sometimes it even works. Sorry to disappoint those of you who feel that way, but I'm not a member of any group that is even remotely "environmentalist" and I never have been. At present the only groups I'm a member of are the NRA and NAHC. If I can manage to find an acceptable job in the area I will probably become a member of RR4W as well. But don't try to demonize me for doing my part to educate you and point out how you appear to others. I've been an off road enthusiast for well over 30 years, I'll still be one long after many of you have moved on to something else.

To me it's a matter of personal responsibility (to use one of the catch phrases of the current administration), as off road enthusiasists we need to personally take responsibility for our interest in off roading. That means we have to deal with the negatives & try to eliminate them, as well as promoting the positives. Right now the biggest negative is the destruction (carnage) of the land being caused by far too many people who participate in off roading. I see the first step in eliminating this problem as moderating what is said in forums like this. People who have no opinion either way sometimes read this and other forums, especially if there is something in the news that makes them start looking for information about off roading. If it even appears that the members of this forum in any way support damage or destruction of the land it casts all of us in a negative light. It's good for us to point out the things that others do wrong, as long as it is without question that we don't support it.

 

[Houndoc]

Interesting reading all the posts at once! Certainly alot of anger, finger pointing and common ground, all trampled at once.


I think there are a couple of common ideas that need to be remembered:

1) As was stated, the damage is the same be it deleberate or out of ignorance.

2) We can be our own worst enemy. Damage by illegal routes fuels SUWA and others to shut everything down. Every case of new damage gives them more ammo.

3) The solution? Education (clear maps with easily understood rules) and self-policing of the sport. Shun, even report for prosecution, violators. I think it is safe to say that someone knows who did most everything.

Agree?

 

[ewander]

Interesting reading all the posts at once! Certainly alot of anger, finger pointing and common ground, all trampled at once.


I think there are a couple of common ideas that need to be remembered:

1) As was stated, the damage is the same be it deleberate or out of ignorance.

2) We can be our own worst enemy. Damage by illegal routes fuels SUWA and others to shut everything down. Every case of new damage gives them more ammo.

3) The solution? Education (clear maps with easily understood rules) and self-policing of the sport. Shun, even report for prosecution, violators. I think it is safe to say that someone knows who did most everything.

Agree?

Sounds good to me. Your solution in 3) though isn't tough enough. Prosecution of violators needs to be stepped up to include a picture of their license plate and if possible the violation. Their rig needs to be posted on boards like this and taken care of. Do we really need to take the education part to the level of the extended bow hunt though, with on line training and a printed certificate of completion? Maybe.

I was totally amazed at how many of my favorite trails in Moab hand changed in the year and a half that I was in prison ..... I mean Iraq. Lots of new "illegal" trails and "additional" obstacles. The affect that this has had on me in over the last 10 years is kind of strange. I have gradually become less hard core, in both my driving style and my rig. I don't want to see the government regulate this like they do everything else because it is sick and wrong, but it could be big enough now that it is necessary.

Are we still going to have criminals? Sure, we will always have a bad element.

As far as other board posting stupid $#it, just look around pirate every now and then. Sure they have board Nazi's that blast them, but they are still there and it looks bad. RME's post about the oxygen thieves was squared away. Hey, we have to admit that bad stuff does happen, point it out and take corrective action, just like was done and mentioned above. I've got big plans for a jeep for my 5 year old, but wonder sometimes if it won't end up being a Chevelle or something....ya' know?

 

[troutbum]

To me it's a matter of personal responsibility

Well said.
symatics and styles aside I think we are saying 'close' to the same thing.