Posing a question about Land Use...

[e28bimmer]

So Ive been reading through the recent comments on land use etc.. and Im still a bit confused. Everyone jumps on the band wagon to bash someone riding off of a trail. Has anyone considered where these trails came from? They had to be made at some point. Someone ventured "off the trail" and created a road or trail to be followed. Moab is a perfect example of this. Check out old topos (pre 1940) very few trails or roads... now look at the 2004 topo.... tons of trails. Hmm...
And everytime the FS or BLM closes a trail, its not thier fault. Its someone who went off road and "made everyone look bad".
So if the current trend continues, and no one makes any new trails, and the FS continues their trend, within 20-30 years... there will be maybe 100 trails left in Utah that can legally be driven on? Is that the intended result?
I know about USA-ALL S) and other groups that are "working" with these federal groups to try and save a trail or two... and honestly, I dont see a whole lot of progress.
And consider SUWA, who doesnt really work with any federal agencies. They throw a fit, and have lands closed left and right. Whether BLM and FS like it or not. In my opinion they have done more in their right that all of the 4wd groups combined. And they did it by not playing nice. One little guy did it in San Rafael and look at the coverage hes getting.
So, why does the 4wd "community" not follow the example of SUWA and take a hard line to getting things done? Instead of catering to the FS and BLM and hoping for scraps. Why not bring the fight to their door, create new trails, publicize and open this land up. I mean, we all pay taxes for it. Why shouldnt we be allowed to use it?
Im sure there are a lot out there who have been indoctrinated and I will hear a lot of "If everyone went out there we wouldnt have any wild land anymore". And I'll respond to that first... there are not that many people that go off any trails.. and those that do, yeah, they do a little "damage" that left, will be repaired by nature. Consider mining towns.. there are very few "roads" left in these spots. Odd considering the traffic and machinery and loads that were carried on these paths. But amazingly, nature has reclaimed most all of these roads. The only reason you still find some is because people have recently been driving them.
I would be willing to bet cold hard cash, that if all the lands were opened up, there really wouldnt be any discernable change in the landscape. People for the most part would stick to trails. And for those who went off the trails, and through a lake, or whatever.. more power to them for having the balls, or the stupidity to try something that everyone else is afraid to do.
Just saying that maybe "the way" things have been done in the past (ie, listening to what the FS and BLM says you can do) is not the way to continue on in the future? Thoughts??

 

[Skylinerider]

I agree with a lot of what you say. Actually all of it.

Catering to the FS and BLM isn't the way to get more roads and trails open, but it will keep some of what we have open.

SUWA throws money and lawsuits at this issue like crazy. The Gov't is so worried about appearing anti-enviornment that they cave in at the first sign of trouble.


I really don't know what the solution is, but until there is a better alternative U4WDA and USA-all have my total support.

Just my 2 cents

 

[Dart]

Oh I think this is going to get deep.


Good points

 

[MOODY]

I see your logic, but I am not so sure I agree. Have you seen photos of previously open areas? They still look bad, no, terrible after 10-12 years. More agressive, yes. I don't know any real answer, but as stated above, I would rather the U4WDA and USA-ALL stay around rather than not.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

So Ive been reading through the recent comments on land use etc.. and Im still a bit confused. Everyone jumps on the band wagon to bash someone riding off of a trail. Has anyone considered where these trails came from? They had to be made at some point. Someone ventured "off the trail" and created a road or trail to be followed. Moab is a perfect example of this. Check out old topos (pre 1940) very few trails or roads... now look at the 2004 topo.... tons of trails. Hmm...
And everytime the FS or BLM closes a trail, its not thier fault. Its someone who went off road and "made everyone look bad".

Sadly things have changed... In 1940, almost all of Moab was most likely open designation, meaning it was 100% legal to drive whereever whenever, hell in 1940 if there wasn't a road where you wanted to go, stake a mine claim and get out the dynamite. The majority of trails in the Moab area are old mine access routes. Even just 10 years ago alot of areas of Moab were still open to cross-country travel (ie: drive where you want).

Well, thats not the situation now... when "illegal" routes get created, the BLM/FS feel they have no option but to further restrict access in these areas. SUWA uses these illegal acts to sue the federal government to close areas to motorized rec. So yes, I can honestly say that illegal trails can lead to more closure. Steve can attest for a situation in AF Canyon where a previously closed trail was in consideration for reopening, but seeing the damage at a nearby trail, the FS doesn't want to open themselves up to the liability of "mis-managing" (SUWA's thougts on allowing motorized rec.) public lands.

So if the current trend continues, and no one makes any new trails, and the FS continues their trend, within 20-30 years... there will be maybe 100 trails left in Utah that can legally be driven on? Is that the intended result?

Problem is, I can't thing of a single trail that was blatently, illegally created that the FS or BLM has allowed to exist. They have VERY up to date GIS/GPS data on all of the trails in their district, its shocking to see what trails they have marked on their maps. As soon as a trail is found that was illegally created, they will shut it down ASAP, spending money out of their strapped budgets to close a trail rather then efficiently manage their current ones (see the domino effect here?)

I know about USA-ALL S) and other groups that are "working" with these federal groups to try and save a trail or two... and honestly, I dont see a whole lot of progress.
And consider SUWA, who doesnt really work with any federal agencies. They throw a fit, and have lands closed left and right. Whether BLM and FS like it or not. In my opinion they have done more in their right that all of the 4wd groups combined. And they did it by not playing nice. One little guy did it in San Rafael and look at the coverage hes getting.
So, why does the 4wd "community" not follow the example of SUWA and take a hard line to getting things done? Instead of catering to the FS and BLM and hoping for scraps. Why not bring the fight to their door, create new trails, publicize and open this land up. I mean, we all pay taxes for it. Why shouldnt we be allowed to use it?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$, 4x4 users are apathetic. Usa-All doesn't get a donor to buy them a building and give them literally millions of dollars to fight motorized recreation. In fact the minority of utahs motorized users are NOT members of groups such as Usa-All. Given the tiny budget of Usa-All (their annual budget is less than SUWA budget surplus) they get alot done. If they had even 1/2 that of SUWA's money, things would be vastly different. Land that was previously designated closed (such as Muddy Creek) could be fought for. It takes court battles... SUWA knows that very well.

This "community" you speak of is very small in relation to the number involved. I can attest to this firsthand. I've manned a booth side by side with the Usa-All & BRC folks nearly begging for folks to donate a tiny bit to help the legal battles... I hear alot of "keep up the good work" and "glad somebodies fighting for us"..... and "sorry, I don't have any cash on me" Apathy...

Just saying that maybe "the way" things have been done in the past (ie, listening to what the FS and BLM says you can do) is not the way to continue on in the future? Thoughts??

You have to realize in MANY, MANY cases, the BLM and FS don't want something closed any more than you and I, but when they are sued, and their Washington based leaders (think back east folks that know nothing of public lands) say it has to be closed... it has to be closed. The BLM and FS are mandated to have a new Resource Management Plan (travel plan) out by 2008 I think it is. This RMP will limit any and all travel to existing specified routes only. In very few areas (Factory Butte still has a tiny spot, Saharas, etc) will there be any cross-country open travel where a "new" trail could be created...

For years groups like Usa-All, BRC, etc have lobbied to change things, but without the crucial $$$, it is fruitless.

 

[DOSS]

I think that this is just an example of "Money Talkes and BS walks" We dump all our money into our rigs and begrudge giving $10 to U4WDA or someone who is actually trying to do something where the "enviromentalists" have millions at their disposal.
I know that U4 tries to use its very limited $$ wisely by trying to befriend the land managers becouse they don't have the $$ or manpower to put up a bear-fisted fight like you are proposing.

I am continualy seeing posts here and elsewhere where people come up with ideas on what we should do or how we can keep our trails.... it becomes a 5 page argument at futility and in the end no-one (or almost no-one) is willing to step up to the plate and follow through.

In short I guess what I am saying is this - Just like voting- in my opinion if you don't Vote you can't complain.. same thing here... if you don't step up help out those who are already working their buts off to do something then shut up becouse you are not helping.

Off my soapbox now

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Oh Corey, I agree with you on many levels about the apparent human impact on lands and I truly beleive that land damage is accelerated by "corralling" all of the growing use onto limited lands. In fact I actually presented that exact question to Hiedi Macintosh (SUWA topdog) at radio debate last year between Hiedi and Brian Hawthorne (of Usa-All and BRC) her response was the usual rhetoric. Brian nailed her on many points... SUWA is a $$$ business, simple as that.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

I think that this is just an example of "Money Talkes and BS walks" We dump all our money into our rigs and begrudge giving $10 to U4WDA or someone who is actually trying to do something where the "enviromentalists" have millions at their disposal.
I know that U4 tries to use its very limited $$ wisely by trying to befriend the land managers becouse they don't have the $$ or manpower to put up a bear-fisted fight like you are proposing.

I look at it this way... the U4WDA is about promoting responsible recreation, education, and stewardship of lands. We have worked hard to esablish relations with the land managers and it is starting to pay off. In the meantime we send as much money to Usa-All, BRC and United as we can each year as we realize they need the money more than us. We can do service projects and educate on a small budget. We couldn't hire a lawyer for a week with our yearly budget (under $10k a year)

Usa-All is more on the legal end of things, but when they have a small fraction of SUWA's its impossible to fight on the same level. But as I've pointed out before, they are doing their best.

I am continualy seeing posts here and elsewhere where people come up with ideas on what we should do or how we can keep our trails.... it becomes a 5 page argument at futility and in the end no-one (or almost no-one) is willing to step up to the plate and follow through.

 

[Seth]

Oh Corey, I agree with you on many levels about the apparent human impact on lands and I truly beleive that land damage is accelerated by "corralling" all of the growing use onto limited lands. In fact I actually presented that exact question to Hiedi Macintosh (SUWA topdog) at radio debate last year between Hiedi and Brian Hawthorne (of Usa-All and BRC) her response was the usual rhetoric. Brian nailed her on many points... SUWA is a $$$ business, simple as that.

By any chance does anyone have this on tape? I would love to share it.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

By any chance does anyone have this on tape? I would love to share it.

I did, Stephen Neilson might. It was last year at the University of Utah, it wass hosted by Radio West on the U's radio station. Let me see if I can find it...

Here is the thread about it:
http://www.rockymountainextreme.com/showthread.php?t=26547

I couldn't find the actual radio broadcast...

As for point and case... Factory Butte. They complain that the land is being destroyed by too many OHV'ers... so corralling them all into a MUCH smaller area is more environmentally acceptable?? How does that work?

 

[Meat_]

I did, Stephen Neilson might. It was last year at the University of Utah, it wass hosted by Radio West on the U's radio station. Let me see if I can find it...

Here is the thread about it:
http://www.rockymountainextreme.com/showthread.php?t=26547

I couldn't find the actual radio broadcast...

As for point and case... Factory Butte. They complain that the land is being destroyed by too many OHV'ers... so corralling them all into a MUCH smaller area is more environmentally acceptable?? How does that work?

If you find a tape I'd be happy to mp3 it.

 

[hambone]

just think if just the 5124 members of RME would donate $10 a year to each of these organizations that would be an extremely helpful $51,240 a year to help our cause. most of use spend over a $100 in gas in a week end to use these trails THEY are fighting for so one less trip a year could keep these trails open

 

[e28bimmer]

Wow... lots of deep responses, and lots to think about.. Just in case I wasnt clear, Im not advocating that any of the 4wd groups be done away with, just refocus the efforts. And I realize that CASH is a huge problem. Consider though that SUWA and some of these other orgs are grass roots start ups. They didnt get multi million dollar donations by just hosting a site and a booth. Demonstrations, etc... helped bring their cause out and a showing of #s helped validate their point.
I feel the cash issue as much as anyone.. God knows we operate on a shoe-string budget. In GREs case though, we have started to evaluate the sucessful organizations, whether we agree or not, and then analyze their business model. To this end we have realized that a public showing, more than $$ will really make a difference. GRE is planning such a protest in the Spring, where we will be marching from the Capitol to the Forest Service offices to deliver an official complaint (this march is in consideration of the Josephine issue) this is just a start, but I feel it will bolster our agenda and show the senators and congress folk that we are serious, and bring much broader public knowledge of the problems we face. To this end, consider the impact it would have to organize a protest on a specific issue, and then have 100 people, in thier trucks show up on the front stairs of the capital building. Signs, banners etc.. maybe a fully organized trek across the state, picking up supporters along the way with and ending point at the Capitol to deliver a specific message or demand to the State Senate.
Since our goals, at least in my mind, are very similar, I would like to see a sort of merging of resources. GRE support for U4WDA activities and vice-versa. This way there is no out of pocket, no upfront cash needed, just show up, get your truck on TV and let the higher ups know that they are losing votes from one group by catering to another. This is by no means a solid plan yet... but its rapidly forming, at least on the GRE side... So what is the 4wd communities thoughts on this?

 

[e28bimmer]

just think if just the 5124 members of RME would donate $10 a year to each of these organizations that would be an extremely helpful $51,240 a year to help our cause. most of use spend over a $100 in gas in a week end to use these trails THEY are fighting for so one less trip a year could keep these trails open

Imagine if 5124 people showed up to a rally.

 

[Seth]

Rallies might peak the interest of the general public for a day or so. Where we loose is in the courts. The courts take lawyers, and the lawyers take $$$.

I will bet that apathy will win the day on this thread. I will put my money where my mouth is. The U4WDA BOA meeting is Thursday the 26th. If 10 people donate $10 to U4 by the meeting and Note thread #37755, I will give U4 $100.

It starts right here. If the folks that are interested enough in off-roading to spend there time on a forum won't pony up who will. Come on prove me wrong! please.

Here is the link to donate

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Rallies have been done in the past and we surely plan to do them in the future. There was recently a Pro-OHV rally in St. George sponsored by Usa-All, U4WDA also participated in a large one at the state capitol a couple years back. Definately a good way to get some public coverage... But as with anything they take alot of human resources (not really $$) to get them off the groud, organized, etc. Truthfully it takes about the same manpower (mabey even less) to plan and execute a service project... One may be more in the public spotlight, but its arguable which one yeilds better results.

Who's the target of a rally?

For the most part the Utah State government is actively fighting for land access, in fact they are actually pro-active about it. Many counties (SL not being one) are currently fighting over trails/roads in their areas. Many of the land decisions are made in Washington DC where we really don't have the resources to even do a rally or lobby... SUWA does. The United Four WDA has a full time lawyer and lobbiest back East, but they are in a $$$ crunch just like the rest of us.

Why SUWA has so much money in my opinion?
Its the "feel good" thing to do for many donors. They don't sympathize with our plight, and likely never will. BIG companies ie: REI, etc donate to SUWA, Sierra Club, etc. Joe Shmoes sit through a SUWA slide show that shows all the OHV damage (watch their slideshow when you get a minute)... and all the folks write a check... having never been to Utah, or mabey they visit once a year. We can't even get big Utah retailers to pony up a dime. Large outdoor product retailers (4x4, hunting, ATV, camping gear, etc) have been super reluctant about getting tied up with either side, especially the "cancer" of the environment. There are some exceptions to this, we have some great sponsors and many of them are more than willing to fight to keep public land public.

SUWA has also been handed some generous gifts...
The leader (founder?) of SUWA, Hans Jorg Wiss lives in
Pennsylvania. He gave SUWA $524,000 in cash, $900,000 in a building, $500,000 in renovations. Not a bad start.

SUWA has ~20,000 paying members ($30/yr) plus numerous donors and commercial sponsors, U4WDA has ~450 ($10/yr). SUWA has an annual budget in the millions (2.8 a couple years ago). U4WDA begs, borrows and steals to scrape by with ~$10k

 

[e28bimmer]

Rallies, if set up right, should cause worry for Senators, you need to appeal to their voting base, you take away that.. and there will be more active action. I dont think its about the courts at this point. We recently discussed with an attorney (to remain nameless at his request) who is dropping his assocation with USA-All after the current case he is working for them. His reasoning, they arent organized enough, and there isnt any public support for the cause. Look at all the cases SUWA has filed and lost, when they started, they got shut down all the time, however, as they made a larger voice, they started winning cases... coincidence?? I dont think so. What Im saying is drop the financial aspect out of it. I dont want anyone to donate to GRE at this point, I just want them to show up!! I think the same applies for the Off road community. What was the turn out at the last 4wd rally? What made it news worthy, how intensive was the coverage? I only ask, cause I didnt hear about it at all. And if I didnt hear about it there are probably alot of other potential supporters that didnt hear about it either. There is a book out there called "making the news" that addresses how to properly organize and draw media attention. Its worth picking up. Im still looking for other thoughts... continuing the same path will only give the same results... I think it needs to be stepped up a notch.
Consider that U4WDA is getting the same charity that SUWA is on a small level. People hear about it, they anty up $20-30-50 and then dont figure they need to do anything else... hey, they donated, what else do you want. Then time comes around next year for donations and the people think, hey, what was accomplished with my $$.. A few trails shut down, a few trail projects... where is the benefit of continuing? Whereas with SUWA (sorry to keep exampling them) people see them in the news, taking actions and making big changes... so when the donation bucket comes around again... they think.. hmm, look at what they did with my $$, I'll definately get my check in the mail today.
The need I think is not for money, but for people and a public showing. If the elected officials feel that their position is in jeopardy, they will make changes to secure their position, and the only way to jeopardize thier position is with people who can and are voting.

Rallies might peak the interest of the general public for a day or so. Where we loose is in the courts. The courts take lawyers, and the lawyers take $$$.

I will bet that apathy will win the day on this thread. I will put my money where my mouth is. The U4WDA BOA meeting is Thursday the 26th. If 10 people donate $10 to U4 by the meeting and Note thread #37755, I will give U4 $100.

It starts right here. If the folks that are interested enough in off-roading to spend there time on a forum won't pony up who will. Come on prove me wrong! please.

Here is the link to donate

 

[Seth]

What was the turn out at the last 4wd rally? What made it news worthy, how intensive was the coverage? I only ask, cause I didnt hear about it at all. And if I didnt hear about it there are probably alot of other potential supporters that didnt hear about it either.

250 at the Summer Convention, 300 NPLD

Desert News

Trib

Herald

And At your Leisure should run there footage next week.

SUWA (sorry to keep exampling them) people see them in the news, taking actions and making big changes... so when the donation bucket comes around again... they think.. hmm, look at what they did with my $$, I'll definately get my check in the mail today.

All of this being said, I am with you. The reason I got involved with U4 (I started going to the BOA meeting in May) was to use my talents to help get the marketing and public image consistent and seen. I won't get in to particulars here. But there are opportunities for U4 and I have explored a few this month.

We (the 4x4 community) are out numbered by casual donations from the suwa side. They have done a great job in painting all ohv users as bad. It is much easier to show damage then to argue responsible use. We need to work on that marketing message for sure. But my bet still stands. Apathy is rampant with ohv users, or maybe it is ignorance, either way we have an uphill battle on the marketing side.

 

[reddevil]

I just donated $25, I hope others take you to task on your offer. I should have donated a long time ago, but this is a great reason to get off my butt and do it. Thanks for all you guys at U4 do.
Rod Holcomb:greg:

Rallies might peak the interest of the general public for a day or so. Where we loose is in the courts. The courts take lawyers, and the lawyers take $$$.

I will bet that apathy will win the day on this thread. I will put my money where my mouth is. The U4WDA BOA meeting is Thursday the 26th. If 10 people donate $10 to U4 by the meeting and Note thread #37755, I will give U4 $100.

It starts right here. If the folks that are interested enough in off-roading to spend there time on a forum won't pony up who will. Come on prove me wrong! please.

Here is the link to donate

 

[Brett]

Rallies might peak the interest of the general public for a day or so. Where we loose is in the courts. The courts take lawyers, and the lawyers take $$$.

I will bet that apathy will win the day on this thread. I will put my money where my mouth is. The U4WDA BOA meeting is Thursday the 26th. If 10 people donate $10 to U4 by the meeting and Note thread #37755, I will give U4 $100.

It starts right here. If the folks that are interested enough in off-roading to spend there time on a forum won't pony up who will. Come on prove me wrong! please.

Here is the link to donate

Just sent U4 $10 bucks