Protests

[Herzog]

Well said, @Stephen

 

[xjtony]

There is no overwhelming evidence that black people are specifically targeted by police in fatal incidents. Do they have a higher rate of such encounters than relation to their percentage of the population, yes.

This is something I've always wondered about. If you took much more localized data, combined with ethnic data for the area, I wonder what these numbers would look like as percentages. If the indecent occurs in an area with a large population of any ethnicity it would stand to reason that those people would have a higher probability of law enforcement encounters. Not due to them all being criminal, simply due to the makeup of the population. I would wager that overall the numbers are much more even than we are shown. This is the problem with statistical analysis. Remove one piece of data and the end result can be wildly different than the truth. Again I'm not saying that there are not issues to be addressed, but I think people let their anger (even justified anger) sway their views and there are plenty of people out there that will use that anger to further their agenda.

 

[SAMI]

Here's a n interesting take...

 

[SAMI]

Also, this interview with Larry Elder hits some interesting points.. watch from minute 23 if you don't want to watch the whole thing.

 

[Cody]

I can certainly buy the angle that the incidents of white cop --> minority violence are probably more exaggerated in the media, and I've personally been attacked (more or less) by a cop that was of my same ethnicity. I was standing in the back of a yard at a party, the cop came over the fence and told me to run to the front of the yard. I could have literally ran 2 steps before hitting a wall of people, and since I wasn't moving fast enough for him, he through me to the ground and put his knee in my back to hold me there while he yelled at other people, then eventually cuffed me...and yes it was hard to breath, yes he was doing it to make a point to everyone else, and yes he was using his power on someone he felt like he could/should be able to control...and no I don't think it was justified and I'm certain this happens every day to a variety of people across the country. There are probably thousands of unpublicized incidences of minority cop -->minority violence and minority cop --->white violence and white cop ---> white violence that don't get reported on, but I do think it affects minorities in a different way than it affects a middle class white kid drinking at a college party.

That is in no way meant to delegitimize the voices in this protest, because I agree with them (the protest, not the rioters). I dated a black girl, off and on, for probably 4 years and I can say first hand that their experience is different than our own. Even the most innocent things that may not have come from a racist place, happen to them and all of that adds up to a type of hegemony that most people in our society just take as normal. Simple things like "you're really pretty, for a black girl" or "you're very intelligent for a black girl" are not coming from a racist place, but are inherently racist. I heard the first one at least a half dozen times, and the second one a couple of times. I also had people yell at us when we were together some place as if an interracial couple was wrong for some reason. There are still some people that believe that in this country, which is mind boggling and further proof of the types of ignorance that minorities have to deal with on the daily. Our "white privilege" to use a fairly current term, is that we don't have to deal with even those simple possibly innocent things that she and/or they deal with on an almost daily basis. Their experience is different, and from being around a 5 foot nothing 110lb girl, I can only imagine the reaction a 6'2" 220lb man would have on people that don't realize they even harbor some of those even subconscious biases. I have friends that are illegal immigrants from Europe (Poland and Romania) and friends that are hispanic and who's families have been here for several generations, and guess which ones have more experiences with racism in their daily lives? To think that some of the people that perpetuate that racism are also LEO's, is not a stretch, it's a reality, and the system that is in place allows them to use their power and authority to do things to people they don't respect or are afraid of.

I do believe all of that has to stop, and over time (generations) things are/will improve in that regard I believe. That sort of thing doesn't go away overnight nor do I think anyone expects it to. What can change more immediately is the process of escalation that LEO's go through. Whether or not violence from a LEO towards minorities is statically at a higher percentage doesn't matter. Even if it's not, it hurts them disproportionately because of their overall experience in our society and in this instance their voice is likely going to be the catalyst for change in a system that has long needed change to happen. LEO's need more training, more accountability, and more transparency. They need better funding, and better access to support resources to deal with some of the emotional trauma that they have to endure on a daily basis. The individual cops aren't the problem, the system that trains them is the problem. In my opinion.

 

[Houndoc]

I think you misunderstood that line. Not saying they are lazy and poor, that they don't have jobs. I'm saying if they want to make a change in police behavior, go become a police officer.

I will accept that I misunderstood the reference was to becoming police officers specifically and not a general 'get a job' statement.

. But, it is a far cry from a "death sentence" to be a black male in America. There are legitimate grievances. These people should be heard and listened to.
At the end of the day, I just hope these events lead to people actually listening to each side of the argument and doing something about it.

I like the focus on listening to those whose experiences are so different from out own. That is truly what is needed as it is near impossible for us to fully understand what for many people is 'normal'.

However we need to be careful not to start the discussion by already delegitimizing the experiences of others as the first part of the quote does (statistically it is correct, but emotionally are we already blocking out part of their experience?)

 

[ID Bronco]

I dated a black girl, off and on, for probably 4 years and I can say first hand that their experience is different than our own. Even the most innocent things that may not have come from a racist place, happen to them and all of that adds up to a type of hegemony that most people in our society just take as normal. Simple things like "you're really pretty, for a black girl" or "you're very intelligent for a black girl" are not coming from a racist place, but are inherently racist. I heard the first one at least a half dozen times, and the second one a couple of times.

I remember being in the ghetto in Miami and Ft. Lauderdale, FL and hearing, "You aren't so bad for a white boy" and having drinks thrown at me out of car windows along with racial slurs and religious inferences that would make a sailor blush. We had physical violence threatened, got mildly assaulted and just treated like crap quite often by blacks. Was it their black privilege that made that ok in their mind? They felt justified. I was not even engaging with any of these people. I had never spoken to them, or tried to tell them about my religious beliefs (I was on a mission). I have not ever protested or rioted because of these experiences. I choose to live my life lawfully instead. I'd guess your girlfriend does too. We all have things we feel insecure about, things others don't like about us, things we get made fun of for. It's no excuse. Life's tough for nearly everyone. We need to treat others with kid gloves, but not condone unlawful acts. Prejudice and racism happen every direction by a segment of every type of people.

 

[Cody]

I remember being in the ghetto in Miami and Ft. Lauderdale, FL and hearing, "You aren't so bad for a white boy" and having drinks thrown at me out of car windows along with racial slurs and religious inferences that would make a sailor blush. We had physical violence threatened, got mildly assaulted and just treated like crap quite often by blacks. Was it their black privilege that made that ok in their mind? They felt justified. I was not even engaging with any of these people. I had never spoken to them, or tried to tell them about my religious beliefs (I was on a mission). I have not ever protested or rioted because of these experiences. I choose to live my life lawfully instead. I'd guess your girlfriend does too. We all have things we feel insecure about, things others don't like about us, things we get made fun of for. It's no excuse. Life's tough for nearly everyone. We need to treat others with kid gloves, but not condone unlawful acts. Prejudice and racism happen every direction by a segment of every type of people.

No, because I don't think you could find an argument to show what privilege it is to be black in our society. I would say that their opinions about your color are "colored" by their experiences in society. Their racism isn't right either, but that doesn't mean that it comes from the same place. It's a product of their experiences, and I'd probably guess your experiences on your mission in some way also impacted your views on race. I think the point of everything right now isn't to try and logically argue whether you think minorities are treated differently in this country, but to listen to their stories and try to understand where they are coming from.

 

[johngottfredson]

Protests, violence and all, are working out amazingly well from the protesters point of view. All the media and politicians are paying attention. Drew Brees is getting shamed for not supporting kneeling during the anthem. Speedy fast action against all 4 of the George Floyd squad. Plus, all the wokesters who have been devastated not to face cop oppression during civil rights now feel they have their chance - cheap price of entry, bricks can’t cost all that much.

So yeah. I am sickened by what happened in Minnesota, and support broad systemic change. I also think all looters should be jailed, and protests lose their validity when they become mobs. But they’re only likely to happen more and more because they’ve now seen they the crazier the tantrum, the more mom and dad apologize and legitimize.

So the REAL takeaway is don’t live in big cities. I feel like something else happened this year that brought that same conclusion.....

 

[Herzog]

 

[glockman]

I normally support resisting the government or authority in most forms. I don't know quite how to apply that filter to the current situation. The fact that black people face higher sentences for the same crime isn't even arguable and it sucks. These protests are different than the Bundy protest in that they are damaging other people's property and doing harm to innocent people. I don't think many of us support that.

However, I don't think I'd be very reasonable if a cop or person of authority killed my brother in the same way that Floyd was killed. My brother is white, was a criminal and an asshole most of his youth. He got put in jail and deserved it, we all hoped he would be arrested all the time when he was in his teens/twenties. But if someone murdered him in the same manner, I'd want to have that dudes blood on my hands. I can totally relate to that aspect.

 

[J-mobzz]

 

[SAMI]

 

[Cody]

Yes, media created racism. Good call Sami.

I would also like to point out that the same methods of manipulation you like point to as being implemented by the media, are the same ones used by religion. Just seems a tad ironic to stand on a platform shouting how the media is force feeding you a conveniently made up narrative that we are supposed to accept without question, then go to church and say "yes, this makes sense, Thetans and mysterious plates, and virgin births and flying spaghetti monsters. Seems plausible. I believe that will not question it because I have faith in what you are telling me". I'm not condemning religion, faith, or saying people are dumb if they are religious--I respect everyone's right to peacefully believe whatever they want. Just that it seems strange to apply one form of logic to one thing, then conveniently forget that logic about another.

 

[Herzog]

It's blatantly obvious that media leverages and sensationalizes these things. I don't get how that's not an obvious thing?

 

[SAMI]

Yes, media created racism. Good call Sami.

I didn't say it created it. Good reading Cody.

 

[Cody]

I agree, 100%, that the media sensationalizes everything. It seems obvious to anyone paying attention. Beneath all of that, I don't believe that 100% of the media and government and wealthy class are all operating in unison for their own benefit. Certainly some people are, because power and money corrupt, but there are plenty of good people, and I'd honestly say the majority of people will do the right thing when faced with a choice.

I also think there are plenty of other things people blindly follow, that seem obvious to me. But everyone has their own right to believe what they want so long as it doesn't negatively impact others.

 

[Cody]

I didn't say it created it. Good reading Cody.

I'm sorry you hadn't read about the concept of implicit meaning yet. You'll get there.

 

[SAMI]

I'm sorry you hadn't read about the concept of implicit meaning yet. You'll get there.

Nice try. That was just good ol' putting words in my mouth.

 

[Cody]

lol, ok dude.