Publishing Trail Locations

[kkemp]

There seems to be different opinions on whether or not we should publisize certain trails. There are a bunch of trails in Utah that are published in books and websites and, there are trails that are not. These trails seem to be sort a local's secret. For instance, at some of the U4DWA trail rides, some of the trails are ones that are not well known trails. So, the question is, should we make these trails known to everyone and even publish GPS coordinates and maps of these trails? If I learn about a trail at a club trail ride, should I publish the location of the trail on the Internet?

 

[notajeep]

Very few secrets exist any more....

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Very few secrets exist any more....

I agree... if its a legal open trail, likely someone here on RME (if not dozens) have driven it.

I have a database of trails in Utah, I'm lacking alot in the Northern area, Delta area, etc, but I have it close to 150 trails worthy of making a destination.

 

[Don B]

Some trails need to be publicized to get more traffic on them in order to keep them open. Some need to be kept under the radar until they are established as a legitimate trail. If you learn about a trail on a club ride, ask first to find out if the want it publicized or not.

 

[78mitsu]

I think it would be better to publish them and document their existence, it makes it harder to close if you have a paper trail that it has been used for wheelin' for years. Espescially if there is a historical account of the trail for example I started wheeling this trail in 1952 during deer season, and my dad wheeled it before that...

 

[great scott]

There are a lot of variables here that you need to know and weigh. I can tell you that when the Price BLM started the new resource management plan(RMP), they asked for a list of all know-en trails. We(Castle Country King Crawlers)turned in as many as we could in the time given, most of them I have used way back in the early 70,s(yes I'm that old....barley). But they responded with we(BLM) have never heard of these trails. They were too secret, so we set out o let the public know. With the help of U4 and RME the Price area trails are much better know-en. Now the BLM has not yet finished the new RMP, so only time will tell if our plan worked. Even if it dose not work, at least lots more enthusiasts have now had a chance to run some great trails.

 

[Houndoc]

. Some need to be kept under the radar until they are established as a legitimate trail.

Makes it sound like we have illegal trials hoping to become legal over time. Very bad idea!!

In general, I don't think that every trip needs to be broadcast to the world, but at the same time no club has the right to claim a trail in public land as "their trail". If it is a legal trail on public land, we have the right to know about it.

And I agree with the idea of historic documentation of trails helps in the long run to keep them open.

 

[Rick B]

Based on what I've seen happen to Moab over the last 40 years I'm totally opposed to advertising trail locations.

 

[Don B]

Makes it sound like we have illegal trials hoping to become legal over time. Very bad idea!!

In general, I don't think that every trip needs to be broadcast to the world, but at the same time no club has the right to claim a trail in public land as "their trail". If it is a legal trail on public land, we have the right to know about it.

And I agree with the idea of historic documentation of trails helps in the long run to keep them open.

In a lot of areas there are trails that are perfectly legimate but not on the local land managers map as their maps tend to be incomplete and innacurate in some cases. These trails need to be mapped out and brought to the attention of the local land managers to be included in the RMP process such as Scott and the Castle Country King Crawlers did around Price. Advertising a trail before you have done this could possibly jepordize the process. Enviro groups are always looking for something to turn into a controversy and they don't let little things like the truth stand in their way. After the trail has been properly established with the land managers it is usually good to get some traffic on these to help show they are legitimate trails that people are using. I would imagine that most clubs would not be showing people trails unless they want people to use them, but it's a good idea to ask them about it.

I agree that no club has the right to claim a trail on public land as "their trail". If it's a legal trail on public lands everyone has the right to use it. Eventually everywhere will be down to travel on designated routes only, and anybodys secret trail will be long gone.

Documentation of historic routes is always a good idea. A lot of areas in Utah are trying to find documetation to prove their RS2477 ROW's and they need all of this they can get

 

[Houndoc]

I understand the incomplete maps. I doubt anywhere in the state are maps complete. But if it is an established route, why hide it? (from your reply, I assume you are talking old, established trails that are not on the map, right?)

 

[Don B]

I understand the incomplete maps. I doubt anywhere in the state are maps complete. But if it is an established route, why hide it? (from your reply, I assume you are talking old, established trails that are not on the map, right?)

Right, but suppose you have the old XYZ trail out to Nowhere Point, it's been there for 100 years and your great grandfather talks about driving it in the 1930's. Your county would hopefully have this on their transportation plan as an RS2477 ROW, but maybe they missed it or don't have a complete travel plan. Most likely the local BLM rep doesn't even know it exists. No problem until you advertise your club ride on the old XYZ trail. SUWA or their ilk see it and suddenly you find yourself attacked in the mainstream media saying how you have created an illegal trail through a "potential" wilderness area for the sake of having a money making OHV event. You also find out you cut down 200 trees in the process. When contacted the local BLM rep says "gee, I didn't know anything about it" Efforts to have this as a legit. trail are gone as the BLM will not stand up to the lawsuits and media attacks. Only if you are lucky enough to live in a county where the commissioners have any balls will they fight for the publics RS2477 claim.

Don't think this could happen? I've seen instances just about like this actually happen and know what it's like to be on the end of the SUWA misinformation attack.

Check things out, make sure the bases are covered then publicize the trail all you want. All I'm trying to say, If it should be an RS2477 make sure your county has the information. If not work with your local land managers and get it on their map.

 

[Meat_]

..But if it is an established route, why hide it?..

Take a look at pictures of the snakes from 3 years ago (hell even last year) and compare them to current pictures.

 

[kkemp]

So who should be allowed to know about it? Does SUWA have the right idea? If we are that bad at taking care of it, maybe they do. We obviously have a special problem in the Salt Lake area. There are very few challenging trails to go wheeling on nearby and so the trails we do have get over used. The only solution I can see is education. But, how do you reach everyone using these trails. If they all visited RME it would be simple, but that is not the case.

 

[mbryson]

............ The only solution I can see is education. But, how do you reach everyone using these trails. If they all visited RME it would be simple, but that is not the case.

Good question. Good observation. Any ideas?

 

[Houndoc]

Take a look at pictures of the snakes from 3 years ago (hell even last year) and compare them to current pictures.

But public land = public access. Trying to keep most people off public land is the goal of groups like SUWA. I don't think it should be ours. Of course that doesn't mean taking out billboards along the highway. I just don't like an ownership mentality that some have (we have seen that before here on Snake discussions.)

 

[IntrepidXJ]

We obviously have a special problem in the Salt Lake area. There are very few challenging trails to go wheeling on nearby and so the trails we do have get over used. The only solution I can see is education. But, how do you reach everyone using these trails. If they all visited RME it would be simple, but that is not the case.

Not too special. They have the same problem with the trails closest to Denver (i.e. Carnage Canyon(LHC) and Spring Creek)....and I'm sure there are other trials near other large citys that get over used as well.

 

[scoutabout]

Good question. Good observation. Any ideas?

Get a trail patrol group to setup shop at the start of Rattlesnake every saturday and educate passing OHV users. You have to go where the users are.

 

[Meat_]

But public land = public access. Trying to keep most people off public land is the goal of groups like SUWA. I don't think it should be ours. Of course that doesn't mean taking out billboards along the highway. I just don't like an ownership mentality that some have (we have seen that before here on Snake discussions.)

I never implied that I had more right to public trails than anyone else, but that doesn't mean I have to run around telling people about them or how to get to them.

 

[Crinco]

As long as the people who use the trails don't CARE, it will not matter how much you try to teach them, it will not take.
With the snakes, it's a case of people caring more about their paint job and not putting dents in their daily driver, then about whether trees get pulled out or plants destroyed. The "if enough people do it then it's OK" mentality took over. If everyone had stayed on the original trail, it would be 1000% better today. The rocks aren't worn down, people just started driving around them looking for an easier way, because they shouldn't have been on the trail if they were not equipt for it.
So the question is, how do you keep out the ones who don't care and let in the ones who do? You can't. SUWA thinks they have the answer to that.....
I think if you keep quiet about the trails, then less usage, less damage, less chance for "them" to close it down if they don't know it exists. It is still a loose/loose.
I'm done.

 

[Rick B]

I never implied that I had more right to public trails than anyone else, but that doesn't mean I have to run around telling people about them or how to get to them.

My feeling exactly. No one said anything about keeping anyone out, some of us just see the reality that ADVERTISING the trails brings about. I say let people find trails on their own.