Rock Crawling

[waynehartwig]

44 is OEM Jeep, so I'd say fine on that one. 8.8 isn't, so you're just SOL.

That's a tough call, where do you draw the line?

IMO axles aren't going ot make or break a driver. If we're putting drivers against drivers, then axle size shouldn't matter. To me it's all about the wheelbase and tire size. Even for the Wrangler Unlimited guys with 35's. They should be pretty close to fair to a Toy with 35's or XJ's with 35's.

But I do think that tube buggies will be more aggressive than a full bodied, registered, driven TJ with teh same size tires. But then again, how bad do you want to win? If you 'care' about breaking, maybe this isn't for you? Or you'll have to tone it down to assure driveability. I'm ok with either. After all, run what you brung! I know I wouldn't get all taht compeitive knowing I have to drive ~1k miles home most likely towing a camp trailer and I wouldn't think of it as being unfair if I was classed with other 100" WB 39" tire wearing rigs that didn't care. It's a competition and competition means you are in competition with each other. Everyone has their own competitive side, regardless of their level.

 

[ChestonScout]

Street legal should be a current registration, current insurance card, current license plate for the vehicle for the state it's from. Any other ideas?

It definetally cant be legal in the state its from. Colorado will legally register full tube buggies. All you need is a VIN number.

So....registration/insurance is a must but it also has to abide by SOME of Utahs laws. My Scout on 42s is actually legal frame height in Utah because of my GVW. Put me up against a TJ on 33s and someone is getting pissed. (Probably me when I lose) Obviously you arent going to require mudflaps and fender flares covering the WHOLE tire. But if you have full width axles on a jeep and there is no way of covering.....modified.

35s and under for street legal class is the way it should be. Modified and super modified I wouldnt put a tire limitation on. Just goes back to the frame and body type.

For the "Pros" I think it would be fun to make them all run the same size tire. I know they have trailers full of tires so put 37s on all of them and leave it up to luck and the drivers.


Thats my thoughts and im going to shut up now :greg:

 

[great scott]

Time to chime in . I love the idea of these grass roots 4X4 comps., thus I have poured a lot of blood sweet and tears into the King Challenge. It is can be very hard to put on an event that is fun, fair, and entertaining. Every year we get ideas/suggestions of how to improve this that and the other. Most of the suggestions are well thought out and have merit. We won't even talk about the off the wall stuff . Even when a suggestion is worth while there are 4 more just as good that contradict the last. In Price we now run 3 classes in an attempt to keep things fairly even but not to complicated. Some teams want more classes, others want less. That's just one example. We do run a Mud Bogg, along with 6 other events at the King Challenge and I can tell you that it is a crowd favorite, as is the Tug of War. Those same 2 events seem to be the least favorite of the drivers. I like them as I have a big high horse powered rig that dose better there then in Rock Racing.
Another issue we have had is changing judges. Each judge has had things he would and would not let slide, the next judge may do just the opiset. We have tried to have judges stay with classes and or courses and it helps, but is still not perfect.
Bottom line is yes I would love to compete, judge or help out where I can. I applaud Craig for jumping back into the game. He has proven he knows a bit
about this sort of thing and has a good chance of pulling it off again. We need to all help where we can, but when the flag drops, we need to give some slack as know mater how it turns out it will not be perfect for all.

 

[ghetto]

I'm very interested in competing. I have a buggy. I used to spot in UROC back before it blew up. I had a blast. I have really wanted to a comp like this. I will be there. It was built by me in my garage. I didn't build it to compete..... but I did want to do some competition. Just to kind of see how it compares and because I thought it would be fun. As for the classes and events, I think if you try to make a class for every vehicle it is just going to be complicated and not fun, 3 or 4 only. The problem is everyone builds a vehicle for their budget, where they wheel, what they think is fun, or cool, and for transportation. Very few build for a comp, and especially for one like this. So what do you do? Get it close, its for fun anyway.

 

[d-stumph]

Street stock would be for the street legal rigs. Modified would be for two seat front engine rectangular frame vehicles that don't make the street legal designation. Super modified would be all the two seat buggies with round tube frames. Unlimited would be for moon buggies.

I am a bit partial to the old uroc rules (maybe it is because a certain old man i know wrote them)they seem straight forward to me, full frame and full body is hard to cheat around, it seems to me that most of the two seat rectangular tube framed rigs like the "commando" can hold their own against the two seat front engine tube buggies.

My Thoughts:
Street stock would be for the street legal rigs (fitting in utahs street legal rules, and if you are out of state doing your best to fit in) with no frame modifications.
Modified (renamed to Legend) would be for two seat front engine rigs that have most of their frame left (the rigs that have tubed out their rear section and dovetailed their body, and have notched their frame for coil overs and stuff, or have boatsided their rig) or in otherwords modified their formerly street legal rig to extreme to be street legal. there would have to be some rules wrote of course.
Super modified would be all the two seat buggies with round tube frames or custom square tube frames. (this is because of the mess of buggies out there that were built for screwroc i mean UROC rules when they would change the rules dozen times a year when the new management took over.)
Unlimited would be for moon buggies. agreed

 

[d-stumph]

natural competitiveness will eventually take over and it will become too difficult for the average joe wheeler to compete with the guys that have full out rock buggies and too expensive for average joe wheeler to afford to fix all the breakage trying to.

I know i just chimed in, but from my perspective rock crawling did not evolve to man made couses and must have cash sponsors to run, and ultimate competitiveness; it was pushed. most the guys on the pro circuit are still the same type of guys that competed in UROC and ARCA in 2000-2003(notice i say most), yea they want to win and stuff, but even the top teams will help out those in need still and have after comp parties (look at campells in AZ). The promoter does more for the direction a series goes in than about anything else from what i have seen, so if a promoter is focused on the competitors and keeping the event a family based fun event, then you wont have a series or event where they will turn you away or lop you in a class with a buggy when you have a modded out YJ.

Old UROC ran around 100 competitors through an event in a timely manner in 2 days and most of those guys were self sponsored. Like braden in his YJ and Creighton in his cj-7. and Carl in his willys, and Todd Little in his willys, and Von in the toyota, and many more (so many i cant remember). The limiting of competitors and shunning of non professionaly built rigs was the beginning of the downfall of rockcrawling.

I believe rockcrawling is a competitors sport and the events should be for the competitors and if spectators want to watch, more power to them. But i gaurentee that even if you take last place in an old school competition it will be a hell of a lot more fun than watching.

and for all of you that think it is boring, strap a helmet on and spotter ride a Vert or sidehill or steep downhill. if that dont make your butt pucker i dont know what will.

I will probably get stuck as a judge but if i dont i'll borrow one (preferably a commando, hint hint) and run, that is if Mikey dont get it first.

 

[rockreligious]

I am a bit partial to the old uroc rules (maybe it is because a certain old man i know wrote them)they seem straight forward to me, full frame and full body is hard to cheat around, it seems to me that most of the two seat rectangular tube framed rigs like the "commando" can hold their own against the two seat front engine tube buggies.

My Thoughts:
Street stock would be for the street legal rigs (fitting in utahs street legal rules, and if you are out of state doing your best to fit in) with no frame modifications.
Modified (renamed to Legend) would be for two seat front engine rigs that have most of their frame left (the rigs that have tubed out their rear section and dovetailed their body, and have notched their frame for coil overs and stuff, or have boatsided their rig) or in otherwords modified their formerly street legal rig to extreme to be street legal. there would have to be some rules wrote of course.
Super modified would be all the two seat buggies with round tube frames or custom square tube frames. (this is because of the mess of buggies out there that were built for screwroc i mean UROC rules when they would change the rules dozen times a year when the new management took over.)
Unlimited would be for moon buggies. agreed

yep.

 

[ChestonScout]

My Thoughts:
Street stock would be for the street legal rigs (fitting in utahs street legal rules, and if you are out of state doing your best to fit in) with no frame modifications.
Modified (renamed to Legend) would be for two seat front engine rigs that have most of their frame left (the rigs that have tubed out their rear section and dovetailed their body, and have notched their frame for coil overs and stuff, or have boatsided their rig) or in otherwords modified their formerly street legal rig to extreme to be street legal. there would have to be some rules wrote of course.
Super modified would be all the two seat buggies with round tube frames or custom square tube frames. (this is because of the mess of buggies out there that were built for screwroc i mean UROC rules when they would change the rules dozen times a year when the new management took over.)
Unlimited would be for moon buggies. agreed

I think that sums up what weve been saying.

Now.....what kind of help do we need to get this going? I will do whatever I can.

 

[bradm]

I think that sums up what weve been saying.

Now.....what kind of help do we need to get this going? I will do whatever I can.

X2, I'm willing to help out where I can. I was a judge for Craig in 2002-2003, so I could help out again, although I might be more interested in breaking my junk this time around... :greg:

 

[Bart]

Hey Dallas, great to see you slumming here. How's the family? Happy New Year.

 

[d-stumph]

Hey Dallas, great to see you slumming here. How's the family? Happy New Year.

Just became a member so I could join in in all the fun, no real rockcrawling last year (I am having withdrawals) so I thought I would get a break from the new baby (my 2nd) and go internet wheeling.

 

[Bart]

Congrats on #2. That rocks. Will be good to see you this summer.

 

[Cody]

I believe rockcrawling is a competitors sport and the events should be for the competitors and if spectators want to watch, more power to them. But i gaurentee that even if you take last place in an old school competition it will be a hell of a lot more fun than watching.

Agreed. But here is the difference. At the time, those rigs WERE the cutting edge. Campbell's old buggy Pinky, Curtis' white CJ, Von's Truck, Tracy's FJ40, Durham's CJ10 etc etc were the most high-dollar, bling rigs out there.

Now there is a huge gap between most recreational wheelers and the people with deep pockets. I could buy a moonbuggy and trounce Tracy Jordan in a TJ/XJ/YJ/ZJ/mini truck/ FJ ... on 35's with stock axles on any day of the week.

Anytime there is an event, people will want their name/product/company attached to it if it has a good rep. It looks good for Poisen Spider to have a rig that is successful in X competition and it is a marketing expense for them to build a rig to maximize it's ability to win based up on a given and predetermined rule book.

You can't prevent people or business' natural desire to be better than the competition. Only a stock class where every vehicle is the same can do that.

 

[d-stumph]

...there is a huge gap between most recreational wheelers and the people with deep pockets. ....
...You can't prevent people or business' natural desire to be better than the competition. Only a stock class where every vehicle is the same can do that....

yep, except i dont think any class at all can do that. there can just be major limits like tire size, steering, bla bla, and anything that it a huge leap over the competition, and if someone shows up with something that breaks a rule for that class they are bumped into the next class or have to watch.

Engineering has alot more to do with a rigs function than just deep pockets though. I'll bet there is a few properly done YJ's, CJ's, XJ'j, TJ's and LJ's that can spank quite a few high dollar buggies that have been poorly designed.

 

[Tacoma]

... and there are at least a couple of people with high dollar buggies that just can't drive worth a damn......

 

[Bart]

... and there are at least a couple of people with high dollar buggies that just can't drive worth a damn......

More than a couple, but stupidity is weeding them out.

 

[greenjeep]

I agree with the above mentioned classes, except I believe there should be two separate classes for the "stock" class. For example, if you look at my Jeep it will have full width 1 ton axles and 38" tires, but it also has a stock, or very close to it, wheel base, full body, and stock frame. I don't think it would be fair for me to compete in the stock class, yet I also don't think it would be fair for me to compete in the modified class, if that is limited to two seat, square frame, virtual buggies.

I'd say, make a "Utah State street legal" class, and make a stock class. The street legal class means exactly that, mirrors, fender flares, frame height restrictions, lights, etc (maybe not mud flaps, because those are just gay!). Stock class would be full body, stock wheelbase, no frame alterations, etc.

Take it for what you will, I'll be there either way!

 

[ChestonScout]

Modified (renamed to Legend) would be for two seat front engine rigs that have most of their frame left (the rigs that have tubed out their rear section and dovetailed their body, and have notched their frame for coil overs and stuff, or have boatsided their rig) or in otherwords modified their formerly street legal rig to extreme to be street legal. there would have to be some rules wrote of course.



That would make WAY to many classes again. If you put full widths on a otherwise stock vehicle....your in Modified.
If you do that for the street legal class, you would have to do it for every one of the classes so we would end up with 8 or more. Thats just to much to keep straight, not enough judges for 8 classes, event would take to long and the crowd will get bored
By the way.....Need to delete the 2 seat line on that modified description. I have 4 seats so would we make a modified class for 4 seaters?? Just kidding. Number of seats shouldnt matter in stock, or modified, or super modified for that matter. Lots of people are building 4 seater buggies nowdays

 

[d-stumph]

That would make WAY to many classes again. If you put full widths on a otherwise stock vehicle....your in Modified.
If you do that for the street legal class, you would have to do it for every one of the classes so we would end up with 8 or more. Thats just to much to keep straight, not enough judges for 8 classes, event would take to long and the crowd will get bored
By the way.....Need to delete the 2 seat line on that modified description. I have 4 seats so would we make a modified class for 4 seaters?? Just kidding. Number of seats shouldnt matter in stock, or modified, or super modified for that matter. Lots of people are building 4 seater buggies nowdays

agreed, 2 seater or 4 seater they are still buggies

 

[Bart]

I agree, too many classes will spoil this. There will always be those rigs that push both ends of their particular class. Mine is one of those rigs.

I have modified my frame, but only to stretch it to the length of an LJ. I have almost stock width axles and am totally street legal when I run my flares and mudflaps. Would I stlll have to run in Modified with tubed out rigs with full width axles?

Transfer cases also come into to play. Any t-case with a front burn option (Atlas, Dana 300, 205...) is going to have an advantage over a non-selectable t-case, i.e. NP231. Where do you draw the line?