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seting up coilovers

zukijames

zukijames

Well-Known Member
Location
not moab anymore
i have 14 inch fox coilovers for the front.

i have about 9 inches before anything hit or binds..

i would like to run 8 inches of up and 6 of down..


but the only way i know how do that would be end up with stiff spring rate..

and if its super stiff it kinda ruins the point of wanting 8 inches of up travel so it would be able to soak up the whoops better..


i know ori ask how much shaft you want in/out and what you plan to do with it and then they valve to make it so it still rides good even with lots of up


but i dont know if i could accomplish that with my coilover..


so my question is . is it possible to run a low spring rate but still have alot of up travel ?


sorry i now this a noob question and most people will just say dual rate springs and thats great.. i just want it to ride best as possible and dont know if just dual spring rates can do that.


thanks for opinions sorry again for the stupid questioin
 
zukijames

zukijames

Well-Known Member
Location
not moab anymore
haha thanks man suspension worked great before.. but it sucked at speeds and my little motor couldnt get it up to speeds so i've been rebuilding it so it will be more fun to drive!

thanks again for saying it worked good
 
GAR

GAR

Active Member
you will probably definitely want to run dual rate springs. It gives you some flexibility in tuning and helps make your suspension more progressive. Plus there are way more springs available in shorter lengths. Do you have your buggies corner weights and approximate unsprung weight? (wheel/axle etc) The best way to select springs is by doing some math and figuring out your vehicle frequency, well, deciding what frequency you want then figuring out what springs get you there. pirate4x4 has a great article about coilovers and springs. http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/coilovers/Part_1/
I can email you a excel spreadsheet I made to calculate spring stuff. Once you get your spring rates close its on to valving which is a whole other ball game but can drastically change how your vehicle.
hope this helps...
 
NYCEGUY01

NYCEGUY01

Well-Known Member
Location
Willard, UT
I have played with coilovers quite a bit on ATV's and RZR's.
I will say that on my current RZR I sent my shocks back to KING and spent an hour on the phone with those guys talking about exactly what I wanted.
It was all in the valving. The setup I had and thought was terrible was easily fixed.

Basically the way they explained it to me was that the springs just need to hold up the weight of the machine. Thats it. Everything else is in the valving.
After the re-valve it had more travel and it feels better everywhere. The valving seems to really ramp up in the last little bit of the shock, almost like I would expect an air bump to act.

Theres my 2 cents...
 
reddman

reddman

Fabber
Location
SL,UT
Stiff is comparative. The rates that rockcrawlers have typically used are laughably low for fast stuff. The last car I took to King for tuning ended up with 600/700 lb springs and will run a gps verified 130+ mph out in the desert, and it's smooth as glass (considering the massive bumps you're hitting at those speeds). Don't get hung up on numbers that don't match the slinky type rigs you've run with before, besides, it's all about wheel rate and frequency, not the spring rate. Spring rate is one number in a grand scheme of variables, and it should be the last one you come up with.

I have a calculator that I made for figuring out spring rates for a desired ride height, it is basic and doesn't address frequency, but it does compensate for motion ratio, shock angle, etc. It's old school, I made it about 5 years ago, but if you want it or have a means of hosting it, I'll send you or a host a copy.



Bottom line, it's not possible to run low spring rates and have the 8" of up you're gunning for. That said, you will like stiffer springs anyways, don't let the numbers scare you off. You will still be able to achieve the travel you want with the correct rates, you'll just be able to go fast too.
 
Last edited:
reddman

reddman

Fabber
Location
SL,UT
NYCEGUY01 said:
Basically the way they explained it to me was that the springs just need to hold up the weight of the machine. Thats it. Everything else is in the valving.
Click to expand...

Holding up the sprung mass is the primary job of the springs, but the oft overlooked part, and King knows this but they wouldn't ever have time to make shocks if they spent their lives on the phone teaching suspension theory, is that they also dictate the natural frequency of the suspension. The frequency is the rate at which your rig would bounce up and down if you had no shocks and only the springs. The faster it naturally bounces, the faster it can shove a tire down into a low spot while driving at high speeds.

If that higher frequency isn't there, all the shock valving in the world can't fix that, and your tire will be floating in the air providing no traction, no acceleration, no braking, and no steering input, because it's in the air. You want that tire on the ground as much as possible so it can do you some good.

Soft springs and high unsprung mass (read: solid axles and heavy tire/wheel combos) will drive like absolute crap at speed, and can never be valved to fix the real problem. Valving can mask or bandaid too high of frequency, and adding some tuneability to a setup with too low a frequency can free up it's inherent problems too, but neither is a real fix. Set the frequency for your goals (wanna go slow or ride like a Cadillac, run springs that keep it below 1Hz, wanna run fast in the desert or in a sports car, speed it up to more in the range of 1.5Hz, wanna run with F1 cars, crank it up to 3Hz or better), then tune from there with your valving.
 
UFAB

UFAB

Well-Known Member
Location
Lehi Ut
Run some ADS Quad bypass, 2.5" air shock, internal bump

Add more fluid for a lower Nitro PSI. Adjust your bypass tubes.. No valve shim swapping..

Add nitrogen and play.

Springs rates can be challenging, making your rig do it all is kind of impossible.

Tuning and adjusting valving and spring rates per track conditions are normal.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
 
NYCEGUY01

NYCEGUY01

Well-Known Member
Location
Willard, UT
reddman said:
Holding up the sprung mass is the primary job of the springs, but the oft overlooked part, and King knows this but they wouldn't ever have time to make shocks if they spent their lives on the phone teaching suspension theory, is that they also dictate the natural frequency of the suspension. The frequency is the rate at which your rig would bounce up and down if you had no shocks and only the springs. The faster it naturally bounces, the faster it can shove a tire down into a low spot while driving at high speeds.

If that higher frequency isn't there, all the shock valving in the world can't fix that, and your tire will be floating in the air providing no traction, no acceleration, no braking, and no steering input, because it's in the air. You want that tire on the ground as much as possible so it can do you some good.

Soft springs and high unsprung mass (read: solid axles and heavy tire/wheel combos) will drive like absolute crap at speed, and can never be valved to fix the real problem. Valving can mask or bandaid too high of frequency, and adding some tuneability to a setup with too low a frequency can free up it's inherent problems too, but neither is a real fix. Set the frequency for your goals (wanna go slow or ride like a Cadillac, run springs that keep it below 1Hz, wanna run fast in the desert or in a sports car, speed it up to more in the range of 1.5Hz, wanna run with F1 cars, crank it up to 3Hz or better), then tune from there with your valving.
Click to expand...

Lol...They probably built my shocks in less time than they took with me on the phone...

What you said makes perfect sense. Whatever they did it works.. I rode the RZR earlier today up Mantua. Basically a rutted up road with lots of washboard and a few big whoop sections. Did most of it at 50+ MPH.
Its my favorite thing to do in the RZR... Driving this thing a little faster than is safe is a riot, Makes me feel like a Trophy truck driver. I was even wearing my Tecate/Score hat...lol
 
reddman

reddman

Fabber
Location
SL,UT
NYCEGUY01 said:
Lol...They probably built my shocks in less time than they took with me on the phone...

What you said makes perfect sense. Whatever they did it works.. I rode the RZR earlier today up Mantua. Basically a rutted up road with lots of washboard and a few big whoop sections. Did most of it at 50+ MPH.
Its my favorite thing to do in the RZR... Driving this thing a little faster than is safe is a riot, Makes me feel like a Trophy truck driver. I was even wearing my Tecate/Score hat...lol
Click to expand...

:greg:

I'm sure they have already sat down and run the numbers for all the popular sideXsides and simply have a chart dictating typical spring rate ranges for proposed usage. Don't get me wrong, valving is worth it's weight in gold, all I'm saying is that it's the final step, and decisions made earlier like wheel rate are the place to start.
 
zukijames

zukijames

Well-Known Member
Location
not moab anymore
geez red man your pretty active on here lately ! glad to see you commenting and thanks for the advice i will have to sit down and read through everything better later.. right now i just came in and am waiting for the welder to cool down and start working again.. stupid 110 with 0 % duty cycle!( yes i said 0%)
 
zukijames

zukijames

Well-Known Member
Location
not moab anymore
UFAB said:
Run some ADS Quad bypass, 2.5" air shock, internal bump

Add more fluid for a lower Nitro PSI. Adjust your bypass tubes.. No valve shim swapping..

Add nitrogen and play.

Springs rates can be challenging, making your rig do it all is kind of impossible.

Tuning and adjusting valving and spring rates per track conditions are normal.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...


mitch you know i'd love that fancy stuff.. but for some reason the 14 inch foxes i have now and are costing me nothing .. seem to be more appealing then an amazing air shock..


some day i'll have some bling bling stuff from you though!
 
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