So there's this huge elephant in the living room...

Herzog

somewhat damaged
Admin
Location
Wydaho
and nobody is talking about it.

So let's talk.

Why are diesel prices so much higher than gasoline? :ugh: And don't tell me it's because more people are buying diesel driven vehicles... the ratio between gas & diesel vehicles is still very significant.

For that matter, what is the REAL reason that gas prices are so high? Sure it could be a good catalyst to generate new ideas for alternate fuels, but it sure seems like that has kind of faded in the past year... has is not? Our dollar has lost it's value, but not by that much. There certainly isn't that much of an increase for demand either, not that I've been convinced of.

So what do you guys think? :eek:
 

Tacoma

Et incurventur ante non
Location
far enough away
Well... NOW, you can say the ULSD is more expensive to refine. NOT so with the older diesel, which literally tripled in price, for no reason whatsoever.
Speculation drives the price of gas to ludicrous levels, and it's a ridiculous practice in my opinion. Prices don't go down, either. :mad:
 

Skylinerider

Wandering the desert
Location
Ephraim
Demand is actually down slightly. It's all greed. Why charge 1.75 for something folks HAVE to have when you can charge 3.50+. There's no shortage of oil. Big oil is going to regret pulling this kinda crap, they are fueling the fire for other sources of energy, and when those come to fruition big oil is going to be S.O.L. If they would've just kept prices around 2.00 a gallon nobody would be talking about Hybrids, biofuels, or anything else.
 

Dominic

Well-Known Member
Location
Salt Lake City
I don't know but it makes me ill. I went out yesterday morning to get coffee, a paper and fill up my VW and spent $70 in seven minutes. I can't remember for sure but wasn't there a big hike in gas and diesel prices before the election 4 years ago?
 

Cherokeester

Registered User
Location
Wellsville Utah
Diesel price is killing me. I don't drive my Powerstroke anymore, only when I need to tow and what not. $4.25 is a huge difference over the low 3's we saw last year. It now costs me well over a hundred bucks to fill the 25 gallon tank. They say $5.00 is right around the corner and it could/will go higher later this year.

I have learned some about the market with all this. Gas/diesel is a commodity just like pork bellies and what not. Speculators will buy more if they think the price will go up so they can make a bundle later. Right now supply is up and demand is down, yet prices continue to climb because these people just keep buying it and stockpiling.

I honestly think the government needs to step in soon and try to figure this out, if not, the economic future of this country is in serious trouble.
 

yellowbronco

Cuts Through Grease !!!
Location
Moab
I don't know but it makes me ill. I went out yesterday morning to get coffee, a paper and fill up my VW and spent $70 in seven minutes. I can't remember for sure but wasn't there a big hike in gas and diesel prices before the election 4 years ago?

I put $143 in my truck last week!:eek:


I have heard that Exxon and Conoco both had record profits for the last two years! A lot of investors have been putting their money in oil which unfortunately drives the cost up. :mad: Also, on average for every $1 that crude oil goes up pump price will increase by 2.4 cents.
 

Spork

Tin Foil Hat Equipped
:spork:
It's a move by the powers that be to shaft the little man. Raise the price of diesel, the price of goods go up, Wages don't increase at the same rate as goods and you've effectively reduced the little man's wage. Market forces are no longer at work, The oil companies have realized they control not only the primary goods but the substitute goods as well. It's an oligopoly where the players have realized they can act like a monopoly.
Global warming has played into their hands and they can blame higher prices on reduced supply, even if that supply is not constrained. The emissions equipment may or may not lower co2 levels on the vehicle but it guarantees more weight and lower fuel economy. If they are truly concerned about emissions look at what is coming out the tail pipe and not what is under the hood.
When will prices return to sane levels? About the time an oil exec is drug out into the street to answer to the angry mob, by then it may be too late.
:spork:
 

Caleb

Well-Known Member
Location
Riverton
I have heard that Exxon and Conoco both had record profits for the last two years! A lot of investors have been putting their money in oil which unfortunately drives the cost up. :mad: Also, on average for every $1 that crude oil goes up pump price will increase by 2.4 cents.

Yep, look at their quarterly profits they release. For the last couple years their QUARTERLY NET profits have been in the neighborhood of $40 billion. That's ridiculous. I could see fuel prices being what they are if the oil companies were loosing money or not making much, but $40 BILLION net profit a quarter.

I've been contemplating long and hard about starting to ride a bike to work :p In a few years I'll have lightrail within walking distance of my house and it will stop right in front of my work :greg:
 

UNSTUCK

But stuck more often.
ANWR!

Imagine what would happen if the US pulled out of buying oil from the mid east? Or just talks of doing so? How hard would it be to get everyone over there to play nice then?

Think about the turn the economy would take. How many good paying jobs would be created...

Now what if the government bid out job to local oil companies? What if an oil company said they would do it for $1 profit per barrel, instead of $10 or $20 or whatever it is now. They would still make billions, and our cost would be next to nothing.

Tree huggers? I wonder if any of them ever walked the vast emptyness of ANWR or any portion of Alaska. Having grown up in Alaska, I know what it's like.
Here's a nice quote "It is completely flat and barren with no trees, hills, or mountains. Nine months of the year is covered with snow and ice and practically void of life. Three of those months are in total 24 hour darkness. In the 6 weeks of summer the coastal plain is dotted with thousands of lakes and is covered by boggy tundra on permafrost (permanently frozen ground)."

Let's get our oil from ANWR and let the rest of world fight over what they want to pay. On a side note, I bet the Russians are still kicking themselves for selling to us for $.52 an acre.
 

Caleb

Well-Known Member
Location
Riverton
ANWR!

Imagine what would happen if the US pulled out of buying oil from the mid east? Or just talks of doing so? How hard would it be to get everyone over there to play nice then?

Think about the turn the economy would take. How many good paying jobs would be created...

Now what if the government bid out job to local oil companies? What if an oil company said they would do it for $1 profit per barrel, instead of $10 or $20 or whatever it is now. They would still make billions, and our cost would be next to nothing.

Tree huggers? I wonder if any of them ever walked the vast emptyness of ANWR or any portion of Alaska. Having grown up in Alaska, I know what it's like.
Here's a nice quote "It is completely flat and barren with no trees, hills, or mountains. Nine months of the year is covered with snow and ice and practically void of life. Three of those months are in total 24 hour darkness. In the 6 weeks of summer the coastal plain is dotted with thousands of lakes and is covered by boggy tundra on permafrost (permanently frozen ground)."

Let's get our oil from ANWR and let the rest of world fight over what they want to pay. On a side note, I bet the Russians are still kicking themselves for selling to us for $.52 an acre.
honestly, look at the stats. If the US pulled out of all oil relationships in the middle east it wouldn't do a damn thing. We've had this conversation before, US buys like 3% (or some ridiculously small amount) of it's oil from the middle east.
 

spencurai

Purple Burglar Alarm
Location
WVC,UT
honestly, look at the stats. If the US pulled out of all oil relationships in the middle east it wouldn't do a damn thing. We've had this conversation before, US buys like 3% (or some ridiculously small amount) of it's oil from the middle east.
I think that is a common mistake to think that the Arabians are forcing high fuel prices...we all have to realize that it is the guys on Wall Street and those jack-holes in the oil business stateside that are eating into our wallets!

We are being fleeced by our own countrymen who are acting unhindered by our government.
 

solidfrontaxle

Toyota jihad
Location
Casper, Wyoming
Comon guys. Its not that hard. The price of diesel is set by alot of things, but a major reason is because YOU ARE ALL STILL BUYING it. If you continue to pay for it, why wouldn't the oil companies charge it? Greedy? Yes it is, but because so many people depend on diesel do you think the oil companies have a moral responsibility to lower their prices? Of course not. Thats why they are in business. You can't blame anyone for trying to make money. And saying the government should step in? Should they step in and take your money if you make too much at work? Oh wait, they already do...
This country is supposed to be about freedom. Oil companies can charge whatever they want, and you can buy whatever you want. If they make record profits, its because you gave it to them. If you can't afford it, don't buy it. We don't have the right to affordable diesel.
 
I talked to the BP guy (head of a plant) that we buy our jet fuel from (jet fuel and diesel are very close) He says that as refineries are more efficient they make more gas and have less leftover that becomes Diesel. So There is less Diesel per barel then there was years ago. Demand is up all over the world, everything the millitary uses is diesel or jet and were burning through alot everyday. When I was in Kuwait and read there papers there was some article saying that they dont like the inflation in oil because eventually it will pop and the bottom will fall out and throw there inflated economy out. So its not the arabs that are doing it either. Just my two cents on the matter I have no idea how they are going to fix it.
 

cruiseroutfit

Cruizah!
Moderator
Vendor
Location
Sandy, Ut
It is no doubt a touchy subject...

On one hand we are a free economy, capitalism at its best. To limit the amount of profit a company can make is absurd on one hand. Do we tell Microsoft how much they can sell their software for? Do we tell Walmart how much to sell their stuff for? Do we tell Toyota how much they can sell their cars for? I didn't receive a price schedule for my goods when I started in business, I sell at what the market bears and what I feel comfortable doing so. Oil companies are no different, private entities charged with the task of making their stockholders wealthy. Alot of other products have doubled in price in the past 3-4 years... steel & ammo comes to mind. I would argue we need steel & ammo to survive as much as we need large quantities of gasoline. I would be interested to know the markup in gasoline, I hear there isn't much in the part of the end retailer (the gas station), but lets say its 100%, ie the cost to produce is $2 (considering the cost of a barrel that number is way low). Do you realize how many markets have a 100% markup, fast food, soda companies, beer, clothing, electronics, ammo. So the markup in and of itself isn't exuberant IMO. Granted the scales are much different and some argue that fuel is a "need" versus a luxury, I personally disagree.

On another hand, the prices have gone beyond what I would call reasonable. But why? Why hasn't a "budget fuel company" (ie Walmartish) stepped in and started producing "fuel for less"... Can it be done? Are the EPA regulations to blame? Is it truly a crude oil supply shortage? I'm not well versed on the subject truthfully... nor will I be anytime soon... I'll still be purchasing gas. I don't need gas to live, not really anyways... With some life changes anyone could really rid themselves of the need for fuel. Consider that only 7-9% of the worlds populations own cars, and seem to be surviving just fine. Mabey not to the scale we are, but life is about sacrifices, I'll stop driving when I feel I can't afford to anymore. I have put my diesel build on hold for the time being... considering the upfront costs and the current premium that diesel fuel is demanding, it isn't cost effective in the least bit, not with the limited miles the vehicle will see... I just can't afford it. If diesel drops to the proportional rates it once had to gasoline, I will reconsider, in the meantime I'll just wait it out.
 

TRNDRVR

IMA BUM
Location
North Ogden, UT
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Carry on!
 

GOAT

Back from the beyond
Location
Roanoke, VA
something to consider

From April 2008 Car and Driver Csaba Csere's article on Diesel Price Increase and America:

Article title is: (this is an excerpt)

Should American Vehicles go Diesel Just When the World is Running Short of it?


The advantage of a diesel is half what it once was. Is it likely to be further eroded over the next few years? According to Ron Planting, an economist at the American Petroleum Institute (API), most of the world’s rapidly growing economies, such as China’s and India’s, use more diesel and less gasoline from each barrel of oil than we do in America, where 40 to 45 percent of each barrel ends up being refined into gasoline. Although the energy demand of these growing economies is one of the causes of today’s record-high crude-oil prices, that growth is putting even greater pressure on the world’s diesel supplies.
The arrival of low-sulfur regulations has also added a few cents to the price of a gallon of diesel due to the more complex refining process required to extract the sulfur.

Basic economics dictates that when one commodity has higher demand than another, its price will rise faster, and that’s exactly what we’ve seen with diesel fuel and gasoline. So why don’t the oil companies simply produce more diesel than gasoline from each barrel of crude oil? Unfortunately, it’s not as simple as twisting a few dials at the world’s oil refineries.

Al Mannato, a fuel-issues manager at API, explains that oil refineries tend to fall into two categories: catalytic cracking and hydrocracking. Most U.S. refineries are set up for catalytic cracking, which turns each barrel of crude oil into about 50-percent gasoline, 15-percent diesel, and the remainder into jet fuel, home heating oil, heavy fuel oil, liquefied petroleum gas, asphalt, and various other products. In Europe and most of the rest of the world, refineries use a hydrocracking process, which produces more like 25-percent gasoline and 25-percent diesel from that barrel of oil. So the rest of the world is already maximizing diesel production. In fact, despite using a refining strategy that minimizes the production of gasoline, Europe still ends up with too much of the stuff, so it exports it to America—about one of every eight gallons of gasoline that we consume.

Meanwhile, Americans are already using most of the diesel fuel that our refineries produce, so if sales of diesel cars take off, keeping the diesel flowing here will put further demands on tight worldwide diesel supplies and probably cause the price to rise even more. Our oil industry could, of course, start converting its refineries from catalytic to hydrocracking and start producing more diesel and less gasoline.



Its a very interesting read on why diesel costs more and why most think its going to stay more and get worse.
Marcus
 

Greg

I run a tight ship... wreck
Admin
Interesting article Marcus, thanks for sharing.

I hate how quickly the cost of diesel has raised. It wasn't a few years ago that diesel was .30 cents less than regular. FYI... Union Pacific RR is the 2nd biggest consumer of diesel in the USA, the Navy is 1st. If you think about how much freight is moved by rail you'll see that the increased cost of RR operations is just going to get passed onto the consumer. Of course the same can be said for OTR trucks... anything that gets put on a boat, train or semi is going to cost more to get to you. That just pisses me off! :mad2:

I've talked about making my own biodiesel for a long time, we currently have 2 diesels and I drive a LOT. We drive for recreation, to see family, work, etc. It would be nice to not have so much $$$ going out the door.

I think the US should ditch the ethanol production & push towards getting more diesel-powered vehicles in circulation. After we make the move towards more diesel powered vehicles we need to start mass-producing biodiesel grown here in the USA's farms. Diesels are more efficient, last longer and bio will cost less than ethanol. Money from production goes back into the local economy, better emissions, etc.

I'd also love to see the auto industry build a diesel hybrid, Volkswagen can make a diesel car get 50 MPG why not toss in an electric motor and get 75 MPG? I think the auto industry could try a lot harder for better mileage if it really tried. The attempts so far have been just to pacify the public, IMO.
 

C22

Registered User
I would be interested to know the markup in gasoline, I hear there isn't much in the part of the end retailer (the gas station), but lets say its 100%, ie the cost to produce is $2 (considering the cost of a barrel that number is way low). Do you realize how many markets have a 100% markup, fast food, soda companies, beer, clothing, electronics, ammo. So the markup in and of itself isn't exuberant IMO. Granted the scales are much different and some argue that fuel is a "need" versus a luxury, I personally disagree.

Kurt,
I can tell you what the "rack" price is today on buying gas: $3.388 for regular unleaded (we are retailing at $3.459). There is more markup in the mid-grade and premium ($.05 more for mid and $.10 more for premium). So, the short of it is we are going to sell gas for a 2% profit margin tomorrow (use a credit card and we'll call it even). If we had a 30% margin, we'd all be walking (regular would be around $4.35 today).

It sucks to be a retailer because you deal with the consumer who's understandably pissed off, yet you really don't make enough off gas to keep the doors open (on average, gas sales account for about 75-80% of gross sales). If convenient stores didn't have inside sales (20-50% margins), they would not exist (unless they were strictly owned by oil companies as outlets which is the way it's headed in my opinion).

We have run a store since 1991, and with Costco and Smith's selling gas for less than we can purchase it "wholesale", we have no business being open. I do think some stores do well (I would guess those that own multiple stores and can spread their infrastructure costs out and have better buying power), but the independent gas station is a thing of the past.

As for diesel, we don't sell it, so I don't have a clue if their margins are higher or less. I can only imagine with the increase in demand (Toyota, Honda, GM and Ford all have models coming out in the next year or two that will have a huge impact on diesel consumption) that the price will keep rising.
 

gijohn40

too poor to wheel... :(
Location
Layton, Utah
and then there is the Tax ON ALL FUELS... if you look next time you are at the pump you will see that for every gallon of gas you are paying close to .60 cents in taxes... and then there is the federal taxes that are added too... i drive from layton to SLC every day for work and so does the girlfriend... we both are looking at taking the frontrunner down there and then picking up our jeeps to work in... would save us tons over the course of a year...
 

Chevycrew

Well-Known Member
Location
WVC, UT
yep frontrunner for me too, I will drive to ogden station, train to salt lake, then ride bike to work.

no more driving 90 miles a day...
 
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