Southwest Crawlfest... what went wrong?

[kmboren]

that is not our final count, the 2678.00 is just from the raffle, there will be more. i am meeting with the blm tomorrow to give them our registered number and then we will see what we owe them. and then we will have a total.

Sorry Del Did not mean to add confusion to it.

So someone give us a quick run down of where all the money came from and where it should be going. As I read this it seems like all the money should be going straight to the clubs, ect. Where does the needed money come from to pay for the event?

Del may correct me if I am wrong.
The money that pays for the event would be the Winter on the Rocks $20 registration fee. That covers the BLM permits/fees and the insurance needed to hold an event. The Money going to the organisations would be anything left over from the registration fees and the raffle which is really the big money maker for the land use organizations.

At southwest crawlfest the cost to run his event would have been the $45 out of the $60 that people paid for. Since he stated that every registration would promise $15 dollars to your choice of the selected clubs he has listed. Since it is illegal to hold a raffle for income all of the "Donations" for the "land use Raffle" should also go to those selected clubs.

If I am mistaken please correct me.

 

[TRNDRVR]

Since it is illegal to hold a raffle for income.....

If I am mistaken please correct me.

Hence :-\

This *link* just might light the necessary fire.

 

[Don B]

The unofficial word from the BLM is that a post event report was turned in after the deadline saying there were 279 registered vehicles. No payment has been made on this as of yet.

 

[pfinder]

i have no idea whats going on here, but i am so confused! I'm just going sit back and read what happens next! its like a suspense thriller

 

[1995zj]

So it has been said to keep this thread on topic. This is not about WOTR and what went wrong! This is about SWCF and accountability. Not even two comparable events.

Where has it been said about things that went wrong at WOTR? Pretty sure it's stayed mostly on topic about the fact that SWCF hasn't paid the BLM or the land-use organizers....no?

 

[rholbrook]

A few days ago I got a PM from Steve asking if I could help him get the data from two different sources and combine them so that he could get some reporting done for the various clubs and the BLM so this could all be put behind him. I met Steve last year when I asked him about some trails in the Sand Hollow area. He offered to show me around as he has done with everyone else on RME. There were two other jeeps besides mine that showed up at his shop to go out on the trail. We had a great time and during this he found out that I was an accountant and that is why he asked if I could help in figure out this mess. I own a company that sells, supports and trains on upper end accounting systems so I deal with large databases and the accessing and reporting off of these databases.

When Steve asked, I figured I could take a look to see what is going on and resolve all the drama. I logged into Steve’s computer and he opened up the backend of his website as well as his PayPal account so that I could gain access to all the data. PayPal was the easiest because I was able to export all transactions into a comma delimited file (CSV). For those of you who only get on to the internet to look at RME or porn, this is a text format that lays down each field and separates each field with a comma. I took the payment record file from PayPal and parsed it separating out all the PAID registrations as well as any refunds because Steve gave some individuals early bird discounts.

The database on the backend of the website was not as straight forward. It did have an export to excel function that was a mess. If the field length was too long it would toss the portion of the field exceeding the allowed length into another row while still continuing to place the rest of the data in the original row and in different columns. Those of you that had registered and listed your whole group or family to include on your trail choices were the ones affected by this. Also, the website would sometimes take 3 or 4 tries to complete the registration and those of you that experienced this know it. The website database is the one that had all the names, addresses, phone numbers, emails and club selections in it and this is what was causing the delay. It was a mess and thought Steve chose this web tool based on a suggestion from another on RME, there was nothing he could do about it now except seek help to get the data out. A phone call to the web tool publisher resulted in a message stating that the offices were close until the second week of March because the team was out trying to come up with ways to improve the tool.

I was able to print the information to a report file, use software called Monarch to pull the data in a format that would allow me to create an Access Database and common field between the two separate databases and query it so I could get the correct information needed for the various clubs and the BLM.

The audited results of the two databases were sent to each club with complete member information so that the registrants could be given their new memberships. Paul Anderson is concerned that his membership was not found. That is a concern and I found it. It was one of those records that were messed up like I explained. There were a total of 5 records with Paul’s name on it. There were 3 failed records on the website, 1 record on the website and PayPal showing a courtesy refund of $10 and one record from PayPal showing the initial $60 registration fee paid by Paul. Paul’s info was one of those that had to be reconciled manually as well as nearly 50 others that the website showed registered or registered as incomplete but not paid. PayPal showed the paid record but the website showed it as not paid. There are posts from Steve discussing his frustrations with the interaction between the website and PayPal which should have been seamless.

During the time I was reconciling the two databases, I received several requests asking for membership changes from U4 and USA ALL to either Blue Ribbon or United. The common stated reason for this is because of the immaturity of the leaders of those clubs. I believe that Tacoma White, Matt W TheBigSgt, Del0075, KC Samuraiman and Paul Anderson750 are guilty of unprofessionalism. These people who requested the changes could not believe the drama caused by those club leaders and members. I am just stating what I was told. I have to say I agree with them, leaders should lead with professionalism, dignity, cool heads and poise, not by causing drama. Instead of wasting energy bitching about the event, be thankful that you got your new members. What other event generated these types of new memberships where you never spent a penny promoting it. In fact, all you have done is bashed it.

 

[rholbrook]

At no time during this process was I denied access to any records. I never asked to see any expenses from the event although he offered several times to let me see all revenues and expenses. Steve’s main focus was to make sure that it was all done correctly. I agreed to help Steve with the registration numbers so the clubs could get their new membership information and money. I am not here to provide all the numbers for the world to see other than I will provide some so the unnecessary high school drama can go away those whose every breath is hinging on the demise of Steve Crabtree. And we as off-roaders wonder why the outside world sees us as mullet wearing, gun totting, uneducated, trailer park living, land destroying losers. Seriously, get the details before you start threatening people with lawsuits, encouraging people to contract IRS and bodily harm. TRNDRVR, stop fueling drama. You weren’t even there and that goes for others that never attended the event and are stirring the fire. It does no one any good.

There were 144 registered rigs, of these there were 8 not wanting association with any club. Exact club numbers I will not post, but the clubs have those numbers. That’s 144 new members to clubs. I looked on U4’s website and if your aligned with a club, registration is $10, if not, its $15. All clubs will receive $15 for each registered user that specified a club. Most that registered listed the club they were associated with now so based on what is listed on U4’s website, SWCF would only need to pay $10 for each new member. He has agreed to pay $15 so that’s just more money for U4.

Steve has communicated with the BLM stating 279 drivers and or occupants were involved and passed onto BLM properties and needed to be counted as far as the BLM is concerned. These are people who PAID to enjoy SWCF. Not pointing fingers but how many people did WOTR claim to the BLM, was it just registered rigs or did it include occupants as well? My understanding from Steve was that it had to include all occupants as per his understanding from the BLM. If that’s not the case then Steve should change the number to the BLM to 144 and pay for 144.

Steve is doing everything he can to make this right with those he owes money to. You have seen that he has posted something on KSL to sell; I don’t remember what it is because I didn’t see it but only read about it. Steve is guilty of trying to put on a great event. He did overspend and was using numbers from last year to try to predict this year’s attendance. He is a promoter, not a database genius, not that I claim to be but I can mine data. I am assured by Steve that the clubs will get their monies.

As I looked at all the registered users and in my mind try to come to terms with the number of people I saw on the trails in all the pictures and videos linked on RME from SWCF, it just doesn’t add up. Some of you I know by sight and some I have met in the past. I never attended SWCF or WOTR this year. I did however attend WOTR last year. I have no alliance with anyone on RME or clubs. The only association in the past with Steve was he showed me and my family a fun time on a trail ride this last summer. At that time I posted on a RME thread that I was coming down to St George and wanted some help to get on the trails down there. Steve had replied to my post to call him as he does everyone else on RME. It seemed like within an hour of that post I got a PM from Samuraiman telling me that Steve was not to be trusted and that I should be weary of him. I stated that I was able to make that decision on my own and not let someone’s own beef influence my opinion when I don’t know KC and I didn’t know Steve. Who else has KC sent this same PM to?

In my opinion there were many people enjoying SWCF that could not have paid and I have seen you in either pictures or videos on the trails during the SWCF. To me, this is no different than sneaking into a concert or Lagoon or some other event without paying. This is robbery and you should be called out for it. There are others but I don’t know who you are so I can’t look for you in the registered list and this goes for all of the others that decided to join trails that you never paid for. I singled out these individuals because they had the balls to post on this thread. I would think that if everyone paid like they were supposed to then this thread would not exist.

I can’t believe that a thread on RME that shows all the fun comments, pictures and videos could go to this. A thread that has surpassed any others on the RME for postings and views and has done it in such a short time. http://www.rme4x4.com/showthread.php?t=70141&highlight=southwest+crawl

How can an event go from, and I quote Shane Herzog, “This is probably one of the best report threads we've had here on RME. Tons of photos and videos. Keep them coming! “, to a feeding frenzy against Steve and SWCF.

Either you weren’t there, registered, attended and had a great time, were there but didn’t pay, or are part of the other event WOTR and want to destroy Steve and SWCF. If you weren’t there and based on the posts on that thread, I imagine you missed a great time. If you attended and didn’t pay, explain to all of us why you thought you could get away with stealing from us as land users. If you are with WOTR, why are you trying to destroy a better event? I am basing this entirely on posts and comments on the trip reports on RME.

Before I even met Steve I attended last year’s WOTR and you can look at my comments from last year. I am not bashing WOTR; I am bashing those from that event that feel they have to attach Steve and SWCF because their event is inferior. Just work harder to make WOTR better. I think it was Sixstringsteve that said he believes that both SWCF and WOTR could some day rival EJS. I believe this, I actually think they could be better if ran and promoted correctly instead of fighting amongst themselves.

Do Red Rock 4-wheelers post their EJS receipts? Does Olaf and area BFE post his? No they don’t, does any agency want to run in the red? Events are held to generate money. Money that can be used to pay event expenses. They win some, they lose some. The previous years of the SWCF fees were not required but donations were appreciated. Nobody bitched about that.

SWCF is not dead; there are those that will go again next year because they had a great time. If I was running it, I would donate proceeds to other land use groups that doesn’t feed on drama and are run by men and women who act like mature adults and who gain respect by being respectful. I know I will be trashed on here by some of my opinions but I don’t care because I look at who is saying them. There are only a few people who live on this site that I actually value their opinions and they know who they are. My life does not revolve around whether or not I can destroy Steve and the SWCF or if I am liked on RME. At the end of the day, I go home to my family not to anyone else. I only posted this response because I am tired of the drama. I agreed to help Steve get his registration numbers out and accurate. If he wants to post final numbers, that’s his decision. If the Club leaders want to continue to show their unprofessionalism, then continue on and show how you never made it out of high school socially and professionally.

Let Steve make it right, he has told us all that he will do so.

 

[SAMI]

Thanks rholbrook, that is great to clear up registration info and I think we can all agree that your findings make perfect sense as to why some folks were left off of lists (IE Paul Anderson and 7 others, if I read your post correctly).

Agreed, there is much drama surrounding this and that sucks for everyone. You, me, everyone, due to unseen backlash with future dealings/events involving sponsors and land managers. However, with that said there is still the big issue about the raffle tickets. I hope for Steve's sake that there is a logical explanation for the way the "Land Use" raffle ran (slide of the hand dealings, and missing donated product). It seems to me that issue after issue that was reported compounded into one giant mess; some of it may have legit reasoning, as you've discovered with the data mayhem of the SWCF website and paypal, but there are still other questions to be answered. Mainly at this point, the "Land Use" raffle that wasn't supposed to pay for the event.

Again, thank you for the work that you've done to clear some of this up.

-Jason

 

[anderson750]

Let Steve make it right, he has told us all that he will do so.

Thank you for the in depth explanation of the registrations. I don't understand the web side of the registration and did not have any problems when I registered, so why it threw me into a batch with problems.....I don't know. But the registrations have not been the major area of concern on this subject. They are something that is easy for him to verify and account for and I accept everything you have said here. Again, thank you for taking the time to clarify it.

This subject has been taken in several different directions, some of the personal, but most have been about accountability. The big 800 pound gorilla in the room that needs to be addressed is the land use raffle. Improper use of funds from the raffle very well could be a legal matter if someone wanted to push it.

The big question Steve needs to answer is what the money that was raised from the "land use raffle" is being used for. People who attended the event donated money under the premise that the money was being used for land use. The vendors who donated items for the "land use raffle" gave them under the premise that the money was being used for land use.....not operating expenses for the event.

 

[Don B]

Sorry, just wrote up a lengthy response that wouldn't post.

Rholbrook, no disrespect meant but to say that 144 rigs were registered but that 279 were reported on the BLM post event report makes absolutely no sense.

I was involved in drama with the BLM in 2010 and I'm in contact with them now and my position is that I will do everything I can to prevent a certain individual from ever holding a 4x4 event on public lands.

 

[Don B]

Mike Taylor
President
Utah Four-Wheel Drive Association

Don Black
Southwestern Vice President
Utah Four-Wheel Drive Association


Mr. Taylor,

This correspondence is in reference to the Southwest Crawlfest that is
scheduled for this weekend (Jan 29-30) on BLM-managed lands in Washington
County Utah. There were several problems with this activity that our
office has since addressed and I wanted to make sure that you and
Southwestern Vice President, Don Black were aware of what happened.

First, let me say that our office works closely with another of your
affiliate clubs (Utah 4x4). Dell Carter and his organization are, without
a doubt, one of our best volunteer groups. They have consistently
contributed a large amount of time and effort to public lands projects
over the past two years and their efforts have raised the reputation the
4x4 community has in Washington County.

I can't say the same for Rockaholics Anonymous. Earlier this week I was
informed that they were running an off-road event this weekend. And let me
be very clear. No one in our office was ever informed that the Southwest
Crawlfest was happening. No authorization or permit was ever requested or
issued. I immediately went to your website, followed the links, saw the
pictures, and read the ride descriptions. Needless to say, I was
surprised. Not only are some of the rides listed outside the Sand Mountain
Open OHV Area, one of them is even in Arizona. I checked with the BLM
Arizona Strip Field Office and they have not issued a permit for this event
either.

I asked Steve Crabtree, who organized the Southwest Crawlfest, to come to
our office on Tuesday.

Here is what our office decided to do. Since a lot of effort has gone into
this event, and participants have already made travel plans, we issued a
letter of authorization for all of the rides that take place inside the
Sand Mountain Open OHV Area. All rides outside this area have been
cancelled because there was no way to conduct an adequate environmental
assessment and issue a permit in the time allotted.

I suspect that if I had not called Steve and confronted him, he would have
gone ahead and tried to run the event without prior authorization. Even
more disturbing was his claim that the local tourism board put up money to
advertise the event. So, here we have an event that showcases the beauty
and challenging terrain of public lands in Southern Utah, but the agency
tasked with managing those lands was never informed.

The bottom line is that our office is very disappointed in Rockaholics
Anonymous and by association, their umbrella organization, the Utah
Four-Wheel Drive Association. Unfortunately, this type of activity
reflects badly on other local organizations like the Utah 4x4 Club, because
the general public sees no difference between the two. The Utah 4x4 Club
and the U4WDA have developed a solid reputation in Southern Utah and I
suspect you would like to keep it that way. So would we. We can do it if
we work together.

Feel free to call me if you would like to discuss this further.

Sincerely,

Dave Kiel
Outdoor Recreation Planner
St. George Field Office
345 E. Riverside Drive
St. George, UT 84790
(435) 688-3210

 

[Don B]

I'm writing up a full report which I WILL make public.

Basically, after this letter was sent out, I was lied to by the "Event Chairman" of SWCF 2010 and led a trail ride out to the Honeymoon Trail. Our group was stopped and turned back by BLM LEO's that were waiting for us as they did not believe that the "Event Chairman" was going to honor the the letter of authorization that the BLM bent over backward to allow SWCF 2010 to be held.

As an officer of U4WDA, CC4x4C and landowner in Washington and Kane County, Ut as well as Mohave Co. Az. I work with the BLM on a continuing basis and do not appreciate my position being jepordized for the sake of one persons ego.

 

[toyota crawlin]

Ha.. I didn't know that SWCF owned the trails there that weekend? Also Tracy led 3 trails 4 SWCF... Stratton paid so get your facts right.

 

[Cody]

post.

Rholbrook, no disrespect meant but to say that 144 rigs were registered but that 279 were reported on the BLM post event report makes absolutely no sense.

.

I think he was saying there were 144 vehicles, and 279 participants.

We have to indicate total participation on our permits in Moab---although now that I think about it, it may just be to appease the insurance policy.

People who attended without registration and/or payment are also guilty to some degree, although the SWCF doesn't own the land and can't prevent people from being there at the same time as their event. Same issue the EJS runs into.

 

[benjy]

Seriously, get the details before you start threatening people

Maybe you should take some of you're own advice:

This is robbery and you should be called out for it. I know who Tracy Evans is and he even posted on this thread. You and your Rock Crew need to pay up. Gravesdigger, Stratton is another.

I saw Stratton pay day of the event.

 

[Don B]

rholbrook, I do not mean in any way to your question your intentions, motivations, integrity or honesty, but from my prespective, you are just the latest in a long line of good people being BS's.

The 4wd community continues to receive black eyes due to a certain individuals actions.
As much as I hate public drama, I'm taking a stand and demanding accountability. From here on I'm going with verifiable documented info turned over to the proper authorities

 

[TheBigSgt]

RHOLBROOK, Thank you for your help on this matter, and I'm sure you saw my Post, saying I would help, as far as my manner on this issue, feel free to come by and talk to me about it anytime over a beer or a sprite and I will give you "The Rest Of The`Story!" That I will not bring into this here.

Matthew J Westrich

 

[Don B]

I think he was saying there were 144 vehicles, and 279 participants.

We have to indicate total participation on our permits in Moab---although now that I think about it, it may just be to appease the insurance policy.

People who attended without registration and/or payment are also guilty to some degree, although the SWCF doesn't own the land and can't prevent people from being there at the same time as their event. Same issue the EJS runs into.

Did he mention that the BLM post event report was turned in after the deadline had been passed and the BLM had to "request" that he do so?

Also, I understand that from the BLM,s prospective: I.E.; The number of rigs lined up for the event, that the BLM considers this a plausible number of participating vehicles? (279) Good number actually. Too bad it can't be done on an honest basis.

P.S. Also to my understanding is that the BLM has received the post event report but has not been paid.

 

[Gravy]

I know who Tracy Evans is and he even posted on this thread. You and your Rock Crew need to pay up. Gravesdigger, Stratton is another. You are all over the pictures and videos having a great time and you are not listed as a registered attendee.

Russ,
You obviously don't know who Tracy is, or you would have realized that he was a volunteer that helped lead two trails at Crawlfest.

I am a paying member of the Utah4x4club, Blue Ribbon Coalition, USA ALL, NAXJA, and the Utah 4 Wheel Drive Association as well as a board member. I'm a member of the Rock Crew, and more positive 4 wheel drive groups than I will list.

And I don't appreciate you defaming my character. I paid my registration in cash at the event Friday morning: I even paid for the dinner for my wife and I, and hot lunch on the trail (which we never got by the way). I handed my money to Ron Jensen, at the sign up table, I watched him put it in the cash box and signed my waiver. My wife and Tyler Harper were standing next to me and Ron's wife and daughter were standing next to him working the table. Ask them if I paid. My wife and I even stayed late both nights and helped clean up.

Russ, I've gone wheeling with you a number of times. You have been to my house. I thought more of you. You aught to know better than to talk down about others without factual evidence, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
However,
I would like an apology.

 

[1\4elliptic toy]

Yes, I did lead trails for SWCF,(regretfully so) I was all but begged by Steve to do so (for the record IF I had not, it would have been 2 more trails that would not have been ran because Steve could not find anyone to help with his event), He told me that we would not need to pay to 60$ (by we I mean trail leaders, gunners and others helping with the event) Because of the many many hours of our time we put in (Did Steve pay too? how about his family?) He told me TO MY FACE that he was not charging the "vendors", were they stealing too? I find it funny you rholbrook seem to think its stealing to go out on public lands. Like a concert? really? I can only speak for myself when speaking about the event. You should be careful calling out entire clubs blindly.