The EV debate; Electric or Internal Combustion vehicles?

Greg

Greg

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As electric vehicles (EVs) continue to gain traction in the American automotive market, a pressing question emerges: is the existing electrical infrastructure in the United States ready to support a significant surge in EV adoption?

If a substantial percentage of the population transitioned to electric vehicles, the demand for electricity would increase dramatically. Many experts warn that the current grid will not have the capacity to handle the additional load, especially during peak hours when most vehicles are recharging. This concern is exacerbated by the regional disparities in energy production and availability, highlighting the necessity for extensive infrastructure upgrades and enhancements in energy management systems.

When considering the cost of building EVs compared to traditional gas-powered vehicles, there are significant financial aspects to evaluate. The upfront cost of electric vehicles generally remains higher than that of their gasoline counterparts, primarily due to the high cost of battery technology. However, potential savings on fuel and maintenance can offset these costs over time. As gas prices fluctuate and the total cost of ownership is considered, many consumers find that the long-term savings from lower fuel costs—along with federal and state incentives—make EVs an attractive alternative. The question becomes whether these savings justify the initial investment amid concerns about infrastructure readiness.

To further alleviate the strain on the grid while maximizing the benefits of electric vehicle ownership, a growing number of advocates are promoting the integration of solar panels for home charging. By harnessing renewable energy, EV owners can significantly reduce their carbon footprint and reliance on the conventional electrical grid, especially during peak charging times by using electricity produced at home. Not only does this approach provide a more sustainable solution, but it also enables homeowners to save on electricity bills and secure a level of energy independence. As the adoption of electric vehicles increases, the use of solar power could become a critical component of the transition to a greener transportation future in the U.S., addressing both the infrastructure challenges and the benefits of sustainable energy sources.

What do you think, are you ready to switch to an electric vehicle?
 
On a related note... https://www.powernationtv.com/post/stellantis-brings-back-ice

Stellantis Hits the Brakes on EVs, Brings Back Internal Combustion Power for Charger and Challenger


In a move that’s bound to make muscle car fans smile, Stellantis is shifting gears and bringing internal combustion engines (ICE) back to the Dodge Charger and Challenger. The automotive giant, which had previously put all its chips on electric vehicles (EVs), is now rethinking its strategy and reviving the rumble that made these cars legends. And if that’s not enough to get your engine revving, the decision is also set to create thousands of new jobs in the process.

Why the Sudden Change at Stellantis?
Stellantis’ pivot comes as market trends and consumer demand indicate that America isn’t quite ready to let go of its beloved gas-powered muscle cars. While EVs are gaining traction, the passion for the sound, feel, and raw power of traditional V8s and turbocharged six-cylinders still runs deep. Feedback from the loyal Dodge community played a crucial role in this decision, with many enthusiasts expressing concerns about losing the heart and soul of their favorite rides.

What This Means for the Charger and Challenger

The return of ICE means that upcoming versions of the Dodge Charger and Challenger will once again pack serious heat under the hood. Expect to see the return of powerful HEMI V8s and perhaps some modernized inline-six turbo options. While Dodge had teased electric versions of these iconic nameplates, the latest reports suggest that internal combustion will remain an option for those who crave the growl and performance that made the Challenger and Charger household names.

On the design front, Dodge is rumored to blend classic muscle car styling with modern performance tech, ensuring that these models not only perform but also look the part. Whether it’s aggressive widebody kits, functional hood scoops, or retro-inspired interiors, the upcoming models promise to be a hit with both old-school gearheads and new-generation muscle car fans.

Jobs on the Rise
Stellantis’ decision isn’t just good news for enthusiasts; it’s also a big win for the job market. The automaker is planning to ramp up production at its North American plants, with estimates suggesting thousands of new jobs will be created to meet the demand for the returning ICE-powered models. This move not only secures the future of Stellantis’ workforce but also injects new life into local economies reliant on automotive manufacturing.

Production facilities in Detroit and surrounding areas will see an uptick in hiring, training, and expansion as the company shifts focus. From assembly line workers to engineers and designers, the muscle car revival is creating opportunities across the board.

What About Electric Vehicles?
While Dodge isn’t abandoning EVs altogether, development is reportedly taking a backseat—for now. The company still sees electric power as a vital part of its future strategy, but it’s opting to take a more measured approach. Expect to see hybrid options or electrified performance models down the line, but for now, it’s all about keeping the muscle car tradition alive.

Many experts believe this pause allows Stellantis to reassess battery technology, infrastructure challenges, and customer readiness before making a full-scale shift to electric. With the performance EV market still in its infancy, Dodge appears to be playing it smart by sticking to what it knows best—building brutally fast, loud, and exciting cars.

Looking Ahead
For Dodge fans, this announcement is nothing short of a dream come true. The return of internal combustion in the Charger and Challenger ensures that the legacy of American muscle cars lives on, at least for the foreseeable future. Whether you’re a die-hard HEMI fan or just someone who loves the roar of a powerful engine, the future looks bright—and loud.
 
My Son is as liberal and econazi as it gets. He's an electrical engineer working for WECC. The electric grid in the western USA, along with parts of Canada and Mexico is what he does and he knows about as much about the grid as anyone. But as "green" as he is, even he finds it ridiculous, preposterous, pure fantasy to think our grid could handle a switch to EVs in the foreseeable future. California in particular, he says the infrastructure is so woefully inadequate for even current demands, that they are all sniffing glue if they think they can switch to EVs without disastrous consequences. As he says, and I have repeated it many times, they can't turn on a light bulb without burning down half the state.

- DAA
 
DAA said:
My Son is as liberal and econazi as it gets. He's an electrical engineer working for WECC. The electric grid in the western USA, along with parts of Canada and Mexico is what he does and he knows about as much about the grid as anyone. But as "green" as he is, even he finds it ridiculous, preposterous, pure fantasy to think our grid could handle a switch to EVs in the foreseeable future. California in particular, he says the infrastructure is so woefully inadequate for even current demands, that they are all sniffing glue if they think they can switch to EVs without disastrous consequences. As he says, and I have repeated it many times, they can't turn on a light bulb without burning down half the state.

- DAA
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California has rolling blackouts mid-summer due to the excessive heat and high demand for A/C! The idea of a massive move to EV's is laughable when they can't even cool their homes and businesses, as is. I can't imagine the cost of upgrading the electrical grid to support a move to EV's from ICE in such densely populated areas.

IMO, the idea of homes adding enough solar panels and a large battery array to charge their own EV's and support the demand for electricity during summer should be high priority. If you want to drive an EV, you should be able to support your vehicles need for electricity.
 
I understand that Ai generated article was talking about whether the grid can handle the load.....which I suspect it cannot....

But I think the thing I didn't account for when my wife bought her Toaster is that the way you fuel you ev is inherently different than an ice car. You don't need the same number of gas stations for ev charging as you do for fuel because probably greater than 90% of charging is done at home, overnight. In 6 months we've never once needed to stop someplace in town to charge during the day, but I think the way charging infrastructure is developing for it is geared more towards putting chargers at grocery stores and targets etc where the 15 minute charge isn't even an interruption.

I could be wrong, but I just can't imagine the majority of ev charging, or even half, is happening during peak demand. The supercharger stations charge double from like 10 am to 7 pm, and when I drive by winco in the day they're mostly empty but in the morning or night they're very much in use.

I love the toaster for daily commuting. Low maintenance, no oil changes, less parts to fail (other than total dependancy on a computer), fun to drive, never have to stop for gas. I think as more charging options are built in interstate freeway corridors, that will become more practical.
 
I have the same question I’ve always had: what happens to all the batteries and solar panels when they are no longer efficient/end-of-life? If I HAD to compromise I’d go plug-in hybrid but even that is questionable (for me) at this point.
 
Cody said:
I understand that Ai generated article was talking about whether the grid can handle the load.....which I suspect it cannot....

But I think the thing I didn't account for when my wife bought her Toaster is that the way you fuel you ev is inherently different than an ice car. You don't need the same number of gas stations for ev charging as you do for fuel because probably greater than 90% of charging is done at home, overnight. In 6 months we've never once needed to stop someplace in town to charge during the day, but I think the way charging infrastructure is developing for it is geared more towards putting chargers at grocery stores and targets etc where the 15 minute charge isn't even an interruption.

I could be wrong, but I just can't imagine the majority of ev charging, or even half, is happening during peak demand. The supercharger stations charge double from like 10 am to 7 pm, and when I drive by winco in the day they're mostly empty but in the morning or night they're very much in use.

I love the toaster for daily commuting. Low maintenance, no oil changes, less parts to fail (other than total dependancy on a computer), fun to drive, never have to stop for gas. I think as more charging options are built in interstate freeway corridors, that will become more practical.
Click to expand...

Did some more research, what you're saying makes sense. The highest demand for EV charging shows a peak in charging activity during evening hours when people return home from work and plug in their EVs, with the most significant demand concentrated in residential areas where most charging happens at home using Level 2 chargers, signifying a large spike in electricity usage during the early evening hours.

If the majority of EV drivers are using their vehicles for commuting, charging at home overnight makes sense.

But the peak demand for A/C will be around the same time, afternoon and evening... compounding the electric load on the grid.
 
As most of you know, I actually daily drove an EV for nearly three years. I did this mainly to cut through all the (social) media hysteria and learn first-hand what EV life was really like. While my experience does not make me the end-all, be-all of EV knowledge, it does allow me to weigh in on this topic.

Greg said:
As electric vehicles (EVs) continue to gain traction in the American automotive market, a pressing question emerges: is the existing electrical infrastructure in the United States ready to support a significant surge in EV adoption?
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The following may seem like a hot take, but it really is not. So many media sources and web sites (including the one the OP quoted) focus on the apparent lack of wide-spread charging infrastructure as a major hurdle which must be surmounted before EVs can go main stream. According to them, Tesla-esque quick charging stations must become as commonplace as gas stations (if not more so) before the masses can transition to EVs. Many people who have actually lived with an EV feel that this belief is grossly misguided, and here is why: if your home has (or is set up for) an air conditioner, an electric stove and an electric clothes dryer, then you already have the infrastructure to charge an electric car. You may need to install a 240v outlet in your garage, but your house can handle the charging load--you just need to make sure you aren't running the A/C, the oven, the clothes dryer, and charging your car all at the same time.

Also, the real-world ease-of-use scenario involves charging your EV at home each evening. A 240v Level2 setup will replenish enough juice for most people to commute to work and back each day. If you have charging available at work (or at any stops you make during the day), then you're even better off. The charging infrastructure so often mentioned is Level3 charging, and honestly that is only necessary for very long, constant drives such as on an interstate road trip. For typical daily use, Level3 charging is simply not needed--I only ever used Level2 charging throughout my entire EV ownership.
 
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The area I see rarely mentioned in these type of articles is the practicality of charging at home in an urban setting.

Large apartment complexes or older more established cities just make it difficult to get charging to those residents without a huge upfront cost(unless you want a million extension cords draped over the sidewalks for level 1 charging).

This is where I see the biggest hurdle for the mainstream adoption. I can see larger charging stations along the freeways with solar panels galore ot help offset the demand.... but urban areas, where it is already condensed, adding multiple level 2 chargers to a 200+ apartment complex or to a row of brownstone in Boston just seems very difficult.

Let alone the downfall of the fact that in many of the above examples the driver/owner of the EV isn't the owner of the building in which they reside. This pushes them out to find charging in public, which will slowly (if EV owenership goals are met) drive the demand up even more during the peak times because they won't be able to charge overnight like a typical suburban family.

My buddy adopted Tesla back in 2016. He now has 2 Tesla S and a Rivian. He loves it but he acknowledges for road trips it substantially changes his planning and many times he opts to take the ICE Volvo they still have.
 
I work in a field that is already seeing the affects of power needs for AI. Its pretty eye opening.
I was at an HPE conference over the summer where they talked about just for generative AI, the US will need to see a 30% increase in power generation by 2035. That's 10 years from now and no one thinks is possible for us to get there even if we stop retiring baseload coal and natural gas plants and remove most regulatory red tape on building new nuclear power. Its just not possible in that time frame.
Throw in the requirements for EV charging on the scale that states like California and New York envisage, and we're in complete fantasy land to think that our grid is ready for this.
 
Stephen said:
I work in a field that is already seeing the affects of power needs for AI. Its pretty eye opening.
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THIS. I've also seen some reports and projections about electricity demands for AI, and it is staggering. It kinda makes EV electricity demand pale by comparison.

It has also made me want to increase my stock positions in a few electric utilities. ;)
 
I own a plug in hybrid (wrangler 4xe bought from Dempsey) and have used it in the existing infrastructure for a couple of years now. My take on it is much the same as Dempsey's.

That said, we are not where we need to be for a large part of the population to adopt EVs, if that is a goal on someone's list. I do agree that the infrastructure will need decent upgrades to support a large part of the population charging EVs, but in many areas the infrastructure is less than adequate or barely adequate as it is without the EV demand. I have a son that lives in So Cal, so I'm intimately familiar with the state of things there. I think the changes that are needed are understood by the power companies and will have to be implemented over time to get where we need to be with or without the EV demand.
 
If I were in the market for a new vehicle right now, I'd consider electric. If I did go that route, I'd probably try and install enough solar to be able to handle the daily charging necessary.

Luckily for our power grid, I'm not anywhere near New Car territory, and I'll likely continue limping along in older model ICE engines as long as they'll let me. I feel like keeping an existing vehicle on the road as long as possible is at least as eco-friendly as giving into consumerism and buying a new car every couple years.
 
The EV thing has had me thinking, work provides free charging, all the roofs at work have solar panels and the main parking area is all covered with solar (and half way down the hill). Talking to co-workers it sounds like cars are still trying to pull enough juice to get charged :D. Co-worker has a VW and he was saying he gets about 6% an hour charging at work.

I will hit 380k on my TDI next week, New EVs are way too much $. I'm still stuck on a car ought to go over 200 miles before you got to put fuel or plug it in. Cost to repair scares me, I look on KSL at used EV and comments like "Tesla give me a bid to fix it and it costs $16'500" scare me.
 
One of the problems I would have is the number of cars at my house. I have three generations living at my house at the moment and 8 vehicles. I could pull off one charging station since I already have 240V in my garage to run compressors, welders, and my plasma cutter. But of the 8 cars who would get to charge overnight ? I would need multiple charging stations and even though I have a 200 Amp service in my house I couldn't pull off multiple charging stations. The problem that I have is that when the power company hooked me up to the grid I asked the installer why on earth they hooked me up with aluminum wire at half the gauge of wire I had to use by code for 200A and was told that they know I would never use the full 200 amps at any time. So to pull off multiple charging stations I would have to have the power company run a new line to my house or cover my roof with a lot of solar panels.
 
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