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This probably won't go over well, but....

Tacoma

Tacoma

Et incurventur ante non
Location
far enough away
... I'm curious. And before we begin, I am NOT BASHING MORMONISM. Seriously. So let's try to have a short, meaningful conversation. I'll just delete the thread if it gets into "Mormons are bad!" or whatever.



Regarding Mountain Meadows


Paul R said:
:rolleyes:
The difference was the incident was not church sanctioned nor were they killed because they were not Mormon, and I say this not to justify it at all it was a terrible thing that happened but you are taking it totally out of context...
.
Click to expand...

Why were they killed then? And what is the proper context? I admit to a glaring lack of really in-depth study. My admittedly limited sources have been from people who have left the Church, that's true, but then, one wouldn't expect criticism from within.

I wonder if this thread has any hope at all LOL


anyway, loose the hounds!
 
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lewis

lewis

Fight Till You Die
Location
Hairyman
I guess to understand this thread I need to refer to another thread to know what your talking about???
 
Paul R

Paul R

Well-Known Member
Location
SLC
Tacoma said:
... I'm curious. And before we begin, I am NOT BASHING MORMONISM. Seriously. So let's try to have a short, meaningful conversation. I'll just delete the thread if it gets into "Mormons are bad!" or whatever.



Why were they killed then? And what is the proper context? I admit to a glaring lack of really in-depth study. My admittedly limited sources have been from people who have left the Church, that's true, but then, one wouldn't expect criticism from within.

I wonder if this thread has any hope at all LOL


anyway, loose the hounds!
Click to expand...

I'm no expert on it. And without even attempting to cover the entire story I will share why I felt that way.

From everything I have read it seems as though a rouge bishop got together with some Indians and killed the group of settler's that were passing through... Now some say it was only Indians, others say it was led by the church with orders from Salt Lake ( I tend to believe it was not done from headquarters, thus the info in my original post, but either way the context you applied is still different).

It was a long time ago, thus, we may never know the whole story, but the context of the situation was the US Army was being sent to UT and people were scared and there was obviously a terrible event, but look at what they have gone through being pushed from place to place and they themselves had been the victims of bloody and malicious massacres. I do not condone nor excuse nor pretend that it didn't happen. I simply said it was out of context because you made it seem like it was a if you don't join the church
we will kill you type of a thing. It is much different from that... Thats all.
 
Tacoma

Tacoma

Et incurventur ante non
Location
far enough away
Ahhh. Ok. That wasn't quite the context I intended, but I see your point and concede it.

Now, the accounts I've read are quite different, but that is neither here nor there for the purposes of my question...

It's certainly interesting, and I'll have to read up some more on it. :D

Thanks Paul. :rootbeer:
 
Paul R

Paul R

Well-Known Member
Location
SLC
Tacoma said:
Ahhh. Ok. That wasn't quite the context I intended, but I see your point and concede it.

Now, the accounts I've read are quite different, but that is neither here nor there for the purposes of my question...

It's certainly interesting, and I'll have to read up some more on it. :D

Thanks Paul. :rootbeer:
Click to expand...

Here is an article that the church printed that has some historical background, to show one side of the story at least...

Here is a wikipedia entry...

Any ways it is interesting and sad, yet, like Marc said we may never know the full events and reasons...
 
Tacoma

Tacoma

Et incurventur ante non
Location
far enough away
Those accounts differ greatly from John D. Lee's confession, which is why I'd like to read up some more on it. History's history, however it makes people look. :D It's fascinating!
 
S

StrobeNGH

no user title
Location
WB
To really understand the massacre you have to remember what had happened in the years prior to the massacre, and the mindset the Mormons were in:

The Mormons had been driven from New York, Ohio, Missouri, and Illinois by angry mobs. Mormons were massacred at Haun's Mill in Missouri, their prophet and his brother were killed by mobs in Illinois, the governor of Missouri issued an extermination order (which wasn't lifted until John Ashcroft got rid of it in the 70's), and they had spent over a year trudging across the country to settle a piece of desert land that no one else wanted (everyone passed through it on the way to CA).

Then, after getting settled in Utah, President Buchanan sent an army of 2,500 men to Utah to basically overthrow the government and install a puppet governor. This army was sent in July 1857.
In September 1857 the Fancher-Baker wagon groups came through Utah.
They wanted to purchase supplies, but the Mormons refused to sell them supplies (they thought they were going to war).
Then the geniuses started bragging about being connected to the mobs that drove the Mormons out of Missouri and Illinois, and martyred Joseph and Hyrum Smith.
Finally, the wagon groups told the Mormons that they were going to tell the government all sorts of things to get the government to crack down on the Mormons even more . . .

The locals snapped and killed the group before word got to them to let them pass.

Some think that Brigham Young ordered the massacre. This theory, however, is not supported by anything other than conjecture.

The people who committed this massacre knew better. They had been told to forget the past and forgive their enemies, but they couldn't follow their own religion. Nothing can justify what they did, but given what they had just gone through, I think it lends some understanding as to why they were inclined to overreact so much.

They were sick of running and getting pushed around, and they snapped.
And what brain trust would come to Utah, less than a decade after they were driven out of the US, and talk S*%# like that?

The whole thing was a mess, but no one can claim that the victims of the massacre were completely without blame.
To say so is akin to saying that a person who travels to Mecca/Medina and hands out bibles and pro-US pamphlets, then gets the beating of a life-time, did nothing to deserve the beating.
 
spencurai

spencurai

Purple Burglar Alarm
Location
WVC,UT
StrobeNGH said:
To really understand the massacre you have to remember what had happened in the years prior to the massacre, and the mindset the Mormons were in:

The Mormons had been driven from New York, Ohio, Missouri, and Illinois by angry mobs. Mormons were massacred at Haun's Mill in Missouri, their prophet and his brother were killed by mobs in Illinois, the governor of Missouri issued an extermination order (which wasn't lifted until John Ashcroft got rid of it in the 70's), and they had spent over a year trudging across the country to settle a piece of desert land that no one else wanted (everyone passed through it on the way to CA).

Then, after getting settled in Utah, President Buchanan sent an army of 2,500 men to Utah to basically overthrow the government and install a puppet governor. This army was sent in July 1857.
In September 1857 the Fancher-Baker wagon groups came through Utah.
They wanted to purchase supplies, but the Mormons refused to sell them supplies (they thought they were going to war).
Then the geniuses started bragging about being connected to the mobs that drove the Mormons out of Missouri and Illinois, and martyred Joseph and Hyrum Smith.
Finally, the wagon groups told the Mormons that they were going to tell the government all sorts of things to get the government to crack down on the Mormons even more . . .

The locals snapped and killed the group before word got to them to let them pass.

Some think that Brigham Young ordered the massacre. This theory, however, is not supported by anything other than conjecture.

The people who committed this massacre knew better. They had been told to forget the past and forgive their enemies, but they couldn't follow their own religion. Nothing can justify what they did, but given what they had just gone through, I think it lends some understanding as to why they were inclined to overreact so much.

They were sick of running and getting pushed around, and they snapped.
And what brain trust would come to Utah, less than a decade after they were driven out of the US, and talk S*%# like that?

The whole thing was a mess, but no one can claim that the victims of the massacre were completely without blame.
To say so is akin to saying that a person who travels to Mecca/Medina and hands out bibles and pro-US pamphlets, then gets the beating of a life-time, did nothing to deserve the beating.
Click to expand...
This.
 
7

73fj55

I Know Turd Ferguson
Location
M.other O.f A.ll B.ombs
History is just that history, which is facts not heresay or conjecture, unless you're studying heresay or conjecture.

When studying or researching history, presentism must always be consider....0.02
 
JackKeslerCustoms

JackKeslerCustoms

Active Member
Location
Herriman
Off topic a little bit, (and coming from a baptised, born and raised mormon and married to a devout catholic, Not an anti religious guy but not a believer either) A really good read is a book by Sam Harris called The End of Faith. It covers a broad range of religion from muslim to christianity, but it is a very good look from a realistic point of view.
 
Milner

Milner

formerly "rckcrlr"
Location
Hiding behind a camera
73fj55 said:
History is just that history, which is facts not heresay or conjecture, unless you're studying heresay or conjecture.

When studying or researching history, presentism must always be consider....0.02
Click to expand...

History is seldom completely factual....It is subject to the interpretation of those recording it and there decision of what to record and omit.
 
Tacoma

Tacoma

Et incurventur ante non
Location
far enough away
History is NEVER completely factual, it is ALWAYS written with at least a small amount of bias on the part of the writer. :D

I've read "The End Of Science" (mostly about science reaching its limits, not dying off) , I may as well check out "The End of Faith". :D
 
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