Topic of Discussion Tile. Yes, this is THAT thread

[Hickey]

First off, I've never done tile. I really wish I could weld a floor down, but we've already bought the tile so we're doing tile. ****ing tile. 1,400-1,500 sq/ft.

We've decided on a houndstooth? pattern or "modular weave" for layout. I think that's a fantastic idea for a noob tile project!

We are doing the entire main floor except for 3 bedrooms that will remain carpet. Our floor is made of engineered joists and OSB.

WTF do I do now?

Lory has begun pulling the baseboard and will start pulling carpet today. Once the trailer is dropped off for powdercoat, I'm expected to become a tile pro.

So questions!

Should I use actually cement board or "Hardibacker" board. For clarity, I should point out that I consider hardibacker to be a fiber board that looks like it's made from a type of compressed fiber. There seems to be a major issue with terminology in the tile DIY online world.

Which screws should I use?

Which thinset should I use?

Which tile trowels should I buy?

How drunk can I be while doing this?

What should I use for tile leveling sorcery? There seems like a lot of products to dump money into.

 

[Pike2350]

Hardibacker and cement board are "interchangeable". They are just an underlayment. Hardibacker is cement and fibers similar to MDF with wood. It is also the fiber cement siding....also called Hardiboard just without the finish on it.

YES you want to use either one as an underlayment. I would suggest 1/4" thickness because you likely have a good solid subfloor already. The screws are best to be specific for the type of board. They have them in the same area as those underlayment boards. Rock-On is one for Durarock...the other I dont recall the name of the Hardi ones escapes me.

Thinset and trowel is determined more by the tile then anything else.

Large format tile you will want a large notch trowel....smaller tile you can go with a smaller notch. V-notch or square notch is usually more important for larger notches and generally will see v-notch in the smaller ones.

Find good tile level spacers. There are a few types out there from wedges which pull the tiles level together and then you break off the tabs after its dried...to reusable levelers that can be removed after its dried. Its3 purely preference but I knew a lot of the installers at my old job liked the wedges (wedges are reusable but tabs are consumable)

Get a good layout planned and chalked on the floor. With that much square footage take your time because I assume starting at one spot may have bad tile cuts much further down the line.

It's not terribly difficult just takes a lot of planning. Make sure to clean the tiles as you go to not get too much thinset in the grout area.....and back butter them for better adhesion.

 

[Spork]

I used the hardibacker board on the couple of areas I've done, I used the cement board screws (greenish color) that were next to the boards.

For thinset I'm not really aware of differences, just bought the bag at HD that said thinset

I used a 1/2" tile trowel and made sure I used the appropriate spacers for the gap I desired.

I recommend you be not quite as drunk as you were when you agreed to this.

For tile leveling I did it mainly by feel, I didn't use a level, the closest I came was a straight board that I could stick between existing tiles to attempt to make them consistent.

A wet tile saw is what I'd recommend for cutting, I've seen people do it just with a grinder but you're so much more accurate with a wet saw that's the way I'd go. It's helpful to have at least 2 people so one runs outside and does the cuts and the other sticks them in place, a marker or grease marker is usually what we'd mark with. In my entry way I used 12x24" tiles and cutting along the length was very hit and miss, most would split in some weird pattern so I ended up just doing a smaller patterned edge to tie things together vs shatter a dozen to get one that works.

 

[Corban_White]

I've done several smaller tile projects but never a really big room. I have done laminate in some big rooms. Houndstooth (herringbone?) Is definitely jumping into the deep end... I think the best way is to start in the middle and use a bunch of chalk lines to get it all lined up and keep it that way as you go along. This

Custom Building Products WonderBoard Lite 5 ft. x 3 ft. x 7/16 in. Backer Board GCB60L - The Home Depot

The Custom Building Products WonderBoard Lite 5 ft. x 3 ft. x 7/16 in. Backer Board provides a stable surface for installing tile or stone and protects against moisture. Ideal for both interior and exterior

www.homedepot.com

Is what I've always used for backer, with these screws.

Backer-On #9 x 1-1/4 in. Serrated Flat Head Star Drive Cement Board Screws (750-Pack) 23406 - The Home Depot

Backer-On 1-1/4 in. cement board screws (750 pack) are the premier fastening solutions for installing cement boards. The patented serrated head design countersinks for flush seating at any angle, providing

www.homedepot.com

They also have a tape for the joints. I usually just get whatever thinset they have in the isle next to the backer. Good luck! Welding is definitely easier than tile.

 

[Hickey]

We do have a really nice wet saw, which we've been borrowing from my brother for several years. You know, in preparation for an eventual tile project. Just in case it actually happens. I've moved it around the basement several times now.

 

[Mouse]

Done tile a few times. The HF wet tile saw that's just above $300 works fantastic with a good quality diamond blade (https://www.harborfreight.com/10-in-25-hp-tilebrick-saw-69275.html). Easily on par with saws costing $1000.

Thinset matters, especially on the larger format tiles. If you use large tiles, be sure to use a thinset specifically for large tiles or the thinset won't cure, or take months to do so.

Planning is key (like mentioned) - know where your key tile will be and avoid an edge which takes thin slice cuts.

 

[Hickey]

We have 3 sizes of tiles. 6, 12, and 18" squares. This is the pattern.


My wife and I are the only two involved. We are prepared for cutting marathons based on our pattern chose and our poorly squared walls. We're also prepared for our house to be in shambles until this is done. I'm also prepared for this to snowball into an entire kitchen and bath remodel because I'm obsessive about shit (if you haven't see my trailer thread..)

Lory has excellent attention to detail and is quite the crafty lady. No one paints walls as well as she does. Absolutely no one. Once we get really going, I'm hoping she will do what she normally does and blow through the rest of the project while I'm at work.

 

[DAA]

I have done tile once. Intend to keep it that way. So, I know, nothing. Except that it sucks to be you.

But I used the Ditra mat for underlayment. Easy enough to work with, I guess. It allows the whole tile floor to float a bit. Recommended by the mfg of the tile I used, is why I went with it. I can't see a downside to using it, except cost. But, I honestly know nothing, so...

I put down a lot of extra screws, did some belt sanding to level and tighten down the sub floor as good as I could before laying down the Ditra.

My project was only about 900 sq/ft. It was all one contiguous piece though, so I can sure relate to the first cuts and the first course determining what you end up dealing with on the last course.

I used 10x48 inch tiles. Huge bastages. A leveling system was kind of a must, it seemed like. Those long bastages bow in the middle. I used the wedges with breakaway tabs. You can see the break away tabs in place on that working edge above.

Ripping those 4' planks was definitely a job for a good wet saw. But a good one, that handles tile that big, was not going to happen. I used the cheapest little Kobalt one and bought a blade for it that cost as much as the saw. Piled up stuff and boards around it to support the long tiles coming off the blade. Chip outs on the last 1/2" of a 48" cut were the most common cause of heartache. But over all, I ended wasting very little tile.

For cross cuts to length, tile snapper baby! Or for that matter, any cuts to width that would fit on the snapper, way faster and easier than the saw. I have a good one, a 30" Rubi you are welcome to borrow.

For notching and plunge cuts, the cordless grinder with diamond blade was awesome.

1/2" square notch for this big tile.

Let the guys at Floor and Decor tell me which thinset and grout and crap to use with this system.

A Ryobi 1/2" hammer drill that was new when I started, was smoking and making bad noises by the end of the job, from mixing thinset.

Oscillating saw was great for door casings and such. Also, put a grout blade on it to clear out excess thinset from grout lines after it had dried. Fast, easy.

Obsessed and spent way too much time trying for perfect grout lines. Couldn't stop looking closely at every grout line I saw anywhere for a year afterward. Have to say my grout lines are awesome, lol! Seriously, I OCD's like a MoFo on those grout lines only to go out in the world and look closely at every pro job my eyes landed on and realize nobody else gives half a fawk about grout lines. Or about being really level with big tiles. Or any of the really small details really. Pros don't get paid to obsess or give a crap. You shouldn't either. But I know you will.

This took me a lot longer than I thought it would. A lot longer. Everything did. But transitions and notches took the most longer.

Good news, I think, is I think smaller tile will be a lot easier to work with. But, #tilesucks...

- DAA

 

[N-Smooth]

Tile is kinda the worst. I used hardibacker and 10,000,000 screws to hopefully avoid floor flex and tile cracking. Make sure to get good screws with either allen or torx heads. The good ones come with the bit. I came to love those for tile and deck projects.

Lots of good advice in this thread 👍

 

[Hickey]

I have done tile once. Intend to keep it that way. So, I know, nothing. Except that it sucks to be you.

But I used the Ditra mat for underlayment. Easy enough to work with, I guess. It allows the whole tile floor to float a bit. Recommended by the mfg of the tile I used, is why I went with it. I can't see a downside to using it, except cost. But, I honestly know nothing, so...

I put down a lot of extra screws, did some belt sanding to level and tighten down the sub floor as good as I could before laying down the Ditra.

My project was only about 900 sq/ft. It was all one contiguous piece though, so I can sure relate to the first cuts and the first course determining what you end up dealing with on the last course.

I used 10x48 inch tiles. Huge bastages. A leveling system was kind of a must, it seemed like. Those long bastages bow in the middle. I used the wedges with breakaway tabs. You can see the break away tabs in place on that working edge above.

Ripping those 4' planks was definitely a job for a good wet saw. But a good one, that handles tile that big, was not going to happen. I used the cheapest little Kobalt one and bought a blade for it that cost as much as the saw. Piled up stuff and boards around it to support the long tiles coming off the blade. Chip outs on the last 1/2" of a 48" cut were the most common cause of heartache. But over all, I ended wasting very little tile.

For cross cuts to length, tile snapper baby! Or for that matter, any cuts to width that would fit on the snapper, way faster and easier than the saw. I have a good one, a 30" Rubi you are welcome to borrow.

For notching and plunge cuts, the cordless grinder with diamond blade was awesome.

1/2" square notch for this big tile.

Let the guys at Floor and Decor tell me which thinset and grout and crap to use with this system.

A Ryobi 1/2" hammer drill that was new when I started, was smoking and making bad noises by the end of the job, from mixing thinset.

Oscillating saw was great for door casings and such. Also, put a grout blade on it to clear out excess thinset from grout lines after it had dried. Fast, easy.

Obsessed and spent way too much time trying for perfect grout lines. Couldn't stop looking closely at every grout line I saw anywhere for a year afterward. Have to say my grout lines are awesome, lol! Seriously, I OCD's like a MoFo on those grout lines only to go out in the world and look closely at every pro job my eyes landed on and realize nobody else gives half a fawk about grout lines. Or about being really level with big tiles. Or any of the really small details really. Pros don't get paid to obsess or give a crap. You shouldn't either. But I know you will.

This took me a lot longer than I thought it would. A lot longer. Everything did. But transitions and notches took the most longer.

Good news, I think, is I think smaller tile will be a lot easier to work with. But, #tilesucks...

- DAA

Well it sure looks awesome.

 

[Spork]

We have 3 sizes of tiles. 6, 12, and 18" squares. This is the pattern.
View attachment 132865

My folks did that pattern, I helped them one day doing it. Once you get your head around the pattern it isn't any tougher. It's just that first half hour getting your head around it...

 

[DAA]

Since your biggest pieces are 18", you really should borrow my tile snapper. It will do all your cuts except notches and plunges. And I can lend you a diamond blade for a grinder too, for those.

I know you have a nice wet saw. But my one time doing tile, anytime I could use the snapper instead of the saw was pleasure vs. pain. Just so much faster and easier (and cleaner). The downside to snapping, is the cut edge looks less like a full tile edge than a sawn cut edge does. But almost all your cuts are going to be hidden by baseboard anyway. And, yes, the edge looks different, but, once it's installed and grouted, nobody, like absolutely nobody, is ever going to to notice the difference.

- DAA

 

[Unimog]

This is timely. I'm following, I am going to do my basement with large format 24x48 tiles. I am working on concrete, so different problems.

 

[4x4_Welder]

Be sure you don't have any floor flex issues. The tile in my kitchen was cracked badly due to this, I ripped it out to the joists, installed 7/8" OSB, and then put vinyl over that. Added bonus is it's warmer in the winter and quieter, with much higher survivability for dropped dishes.

 

[shortstraw8]

I like to lay everything out and cut it all as a dry run, makes for less mess I find. I also like to waterproof potential water damage areas; bathroom floor, floor by front/back door, floor by sink/dishwasher/fridge.

Should I use actually cement board or "Hardibacker" board.
I prefer ditramat over hardi or cement board for install, I feel like it is stronger with the mesh and way of install than the other two and a hell of a lot easier to remove if you ever wanted. You can usually get a different brand for much cheaper at a flooring place, home depot and lowes are very expensive for ditramat.

Which screws should I use?
Whatever is recommended by the manufacture

Which thinset should I use?
If it is large format tile or stone, use the lft/stone thinset, it should say it on the bag.

Which tile trowels should I buy?
Depends on a few factors, but you should be fine with 1/2 square notch
When grouting, depending on your grout joint size you will want a stiffer float. Also grouting well likely be the worst part of it, other than the design layout.

How drunk can I be while doing this?
If you are smart like me and blow out your shoulder while remodeling your house. My best tile floor in the house is the kids bathroom, 2 shots of whiskey every few hours was good for me.

What should I use for tile leveling sorcery?
Those tile leveling things are cool looking, but really a straight edge and constant thinset mixture should be fine.
Good set of hard plastic (not rubber/flexible) spacers and some wedges for against the wall. A good 2' straight edge to make sure there is no lippage, the 4 tiles I did not use one on in my kitchen all have lippage all cause I was too lazy to get back up and grab it.

Finding the highest point on your floor and finding the difference is always a good idea specially on concrete, if it is a big enough difference a self leveling floor would be a good idea.

Finding the best knee pads/kneeling pad you can will make a difference.

Starrtile on youtube does a good job of explaining things without a ton of BS, but he does talk a bunch. I am about to start my shower, I have only helped on one other shower. Watching him explain what to really worry about has been a good reminder, and even learned a few things since I am adding a bench and have never done it.

 

[DAA]

Finding the best knee pads/kneeling pad you can will make a difference.

^^^^ = Gospel. I forgot about knee pads. Absolute must have.

I am going to do my basement with large format 24x48 tiles.

OMG... I'm so glad my Wife never saw 24x48 tile. I bet they are going to look incredible though!

- DAA

 

[DAA]

Added bonus is it's warmer in the winter and quieter, with much higher survivability for dropped dishes.

My dogs would have had vinyl looking like a chicken feed yard faster than I could have installed it. Good porcelain tile is completely dog proof though. They can't scratch it - they'd wear their feet off before they could leave a detectable mark in it. They certainly can't chew it. They can't stain it. They can't leave any odors in it. Whole reason I did tile. Dogs. And - as installed, it's pretty incredibly strong against something like dropping a dutch oven on it too. Good porcelain is some tough stuff - you could bust the crap out of some heavy dishes on it and never be able to tell where it happened. Just don't leave a hollow spot under it.

- DAA

 

[Unimog]

I don't want to hijack the thread, but how do I decide on joint size? I'd like as tight of joints as reasonably possible but I don't want to make my job impossible. Tile manufacturer of the 24x48 tiles says 1/16, 1/18, or 3/16. Supposedly the ANSI standards for running bond/brick joint patterns utilizing tiles (square or rectangular) with any side greater than 15”, the grout joint shall be, on average, a minimum of 1/8” wide for rectified tiles and, on average, a minimum of 3/16” wide for calibrated (non-rectified) tiles. They then suggest increasing the size for any variances in tile size.

 

[Unimog]

Finding the highest point on your floor and finding the difference is always a good idea specially on concrete, if it is a big enough difference a self leveling floor would be a good idea.

How level is level enough?

 

[shortstraw8]

I don't want to hijack the thread, but how do I decide on joint size? I'd like as tight of joints as reasonably possible but I don't want to make my job impossible. Tile manufacturer of the 24x48 tiles says 1/16, 1/18, or 3/16. Supposedly the ANSI standards for running bond/brick joint patterns utilizing tiles (square or rectangular) with any side greater than 15”, the grout joint shall be, on average, a minimum of 1/8” wide for rectified tiles and, on average, a minimum of 3/16” wide for calibrated (non-rectified) tiles. They then suggest increasing the size for any variances in tile size.

I just go with the smallest recommended size of the tile manufacture.The 12"x24" tile my wife picked out, the smallest recommended size was 1/8th so I went 1/8th. On the smaller 4"x4" tile the smallest recommended was 1/16th, so I went 1/16th

How level is level enough?

I don't know if there is an exact science to it as I am not a tile expert, the guy that I learned from told me that it depends. You really should not be building anything up with the thinset, but you can as long as you let it fully cure (to a point obviously). Is it far enough out that it makes more sense to try and level it with self leveler to save time? I bring this up because I worked an old remodel in Sugar House where the middle of the floor was a fat 1/2 lower than the perimeter. We used self level only cause we would have had to build it up over a 1/2 just to make it even. They had engineers do some compaction tests to make sure it did not need a footing.
If your floor is flat but just leaning to one side then you wont really need to fill to match. Now that you know your highest point, you should be fine laying it from your highest point, and keeping the tiles level with each other. It will also help show that maybe the concrete guy left one spot high that you can just grind down flat, instead of having a bucket of mud dry out while you frantically search for tools to fix it, just goes back to prep.