Turbo talk

Kevin B.

Not often wrong. Never quite right.
Moderator
Location
Stinkwater
I'm still learning about forced induction and this is way down the road anyway, but tell me why a remote mount turbo is a bad idea. Other than the weird intake setup which I think I have a solution for, what are the other drawbacks? Would lag time be considerably worse than an under-hood setup? How would a super-hot turbine appreciate being dunked during a water crossing?
 

Greg

I run a tight ship... wreck
Admin
The water crossing thing is the big question, but in all reality how often will you be dunking the turbo at a river crossing? I would think that if you were sensible, let the turbo cool down significantly (you may be sitting at the banks of a river crossing for up to an hour or more) before hitting the water AND the turbo itself was protected from debris, it's within reason. Obviously the piping will need to be very well sealed. I don't know how a hot turbo would react to being submerged for a minute at a time, but I can't help to think that a hot turbo housing cooling down rapidly wouldn't cause some kind of bad outcome.

A smaller turbo will make up for the effect of lag, but it has to be a well thought out system. I've heard that a remote mount turbo with all the additional piping acts like a built in intercooler, which is very good. You'll need to figure out how to run an oil line to & from the turbo, which is the most important part of this. You would probably need an electric pump to pressurize the oil going to the turbo, since that would be a LONG distance for oil to cover on engine oil pressure alone.

I would look at STS's kits to get an idea for proper turbo sizing with your engine. Will this be on your 3RZ?

All told, is there really a reason a turbo mounted to the exhaust manifold is out of the question?
 

Kevin B.

Not often wrong. Never quite right.
Moderator
Location
Stinkwater
I would look at STS's kits to get an idea for proper turbo sizing with your engine. Will this be on your 3RZ?

All told, is there really a reason a turbo mounted to the exhaust manifold is out of the question?

Does STS exist anymore? I tried their website, all I get is a splash page.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to drop some kind of forced induction on the 3RZ. I don't know enough to know what yet, supercharger vs. turbo, still learning and looking at options. Nothing's out of the question. :D
 

Greg

I run a tight ship... wreck
Admin
Does STS exist anymore? I tried their website, all I get is a splash page.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to drop some kind of forced induction on the 3RZ. I don't know enough to know what yet, supercharger vs. turbo, still learning and looking at options. Nothing's out of the question. :D

I just looked at their site, looks like the business was sold and the remnants purchased by the guy that started the biz and he's starting over again. They used to have a universal kit for 4, 6 and 8 cly applications, I figured you could see what turbo they suggest for your engine.

After doing more reading, looks like the best bet is to find out the suggested housing size & A/R for your engine and drop that by one size for a remote mount application.

Plenty of people have turbo'd the 3RZ before, I think there it even an exhaust manifold built for it, I don't think it would be hard at all to build a turbo mounted off the manifold, you should have plenty of room. The plumbing is the hard part, especially with an intercooler. One thing I was looking into when I was considering adding a turbo to a FZJ80 was using methanol instead of an intercooler. You can buy kits that inject the methanol under boost, negating the need for an intercooler. The methanol helps control detonation and makes it safer to run under boost. I think that would be a pretty simple setup, methanol is easy to get.
 

Kevin B.

Not often wrong. Never quite right.
Moderator
Location
Stinkwater

blznnp

Well-Known Member
Location
Herriman
why not do what roadkill did, get a 7.3L power stroke turbo and just slap it on. The guy that started STS has a shop down south, i want to say in orem but I would have to ask a friend again. A lot of people don't like those set ups, I have a friend that is against them, not sure why really. I have heard that they are not as efficient but I haven't really seen anything to back that up. Of course the guy who did STS says they can be as or more efficient. My biggest reason for going with a system like theirs would be to just keep the turbo out of the engine bay, mainly cause I think it looks cleaner
 

boogie_4wheel

Active Member
Prior to water crossing, just let it idle for a few minutes. My truck egt's are under 350* at no load idle, and that's at about 5" from the exhaust port. I can't imagine a gasser to be much different. With the turbo being farther downstream, it's going to be cooler.

Run a smaller turbo for quicker spooling, but results in less boost and the sooner you will need to open the wastegate (excessive exhaust drive pressure).

Oil pump needed to return oil from turbo to oil pan.

A supercharger would be better for response, turbo would be great at the dunes (longer more planned actions).
 

Rock Taco

Well-Known Member
Location
Sandy
There was a guy on TTORA that did a remote turbo in a 2nd gen 4runner I believe. I tried to find the thread for you but gave up after a couple of pages.
 

gorillaxj

Always building hardly wheeling
Location
SLC
I have never been to impressed with the remote turbos on tacoma's, sequoia's, or tundras I have driven and worked on. The trd superchargers feel and react better IMHO. I would strongly recommend a manifold mounted turbo on the other hand. Sts uses a FMU for tuning and is a simplistic setup other then pluming.

I would also recommend a water to air intercooler if you don't want a typical air to air. Water to air can be pretty compact and easy to hide.
 

TurboMinivan

Still plays with cars
Location
Lehi, UT
Aww, you guys! Turbocharging is one of my very favorite topics ever. :)

I'm still learning about forced induction and this is way down the road anyway, but tell me why a remote mount turbo is a bad idea.

A turbocharger's turbine is driven by heat energy of the exhaust. Contrary to what some believe, a turbine is not simply a fan that 'catches' exhaust airflow. The further you place the turbine from the engine's exhaust outlet, the cooler that exhaust air becomes, and thus the less heat energy it contains. If you take a turbine which is properly-sized for mounting near the engine, then mount it twelve feet away from the engine, it will perform poorly. To compensate, a savvy installer who is hell bent on mounting the turbo at the rear bumper will re-size the turbine accordingly.

what are the other drawbacks? Would lag time be considerably worse than an under-hood setup?

As has been mentioned, turbo centersections require a constant supply of oil. This means you'll need to run oil from the engine to the rear of the car, allow it to run through the turbo, then collect it and send it back forward to the oil pan. On top of that, if you choose to run a water-cooled turbo (which I strongly suggest both for durability as well as reducing any chance for oil coking) then you'll need to run engine coolant from the engine bay back to the turbo and then back forward to the engine. So now we have four lines running front-to-rear under the car, and--oh, yeah--we haven't yet discussed getting the charge air to the throttle body.

Speaking of, the answer to your second question is yes. It will take your charge air considerably longer to travel through twelve feet of pipe than it would to travel through two or three feet of pipe. Having said that, there is an important consideration: how will your car control its fuel injection? On a speed density setup, this additional lag time will cause no significant drawback. On a mass flow system, there will be a considerable delay between the airflow meter (located before the turbo) and the combustion chamber, which will throw off your air/fuel ratio any time there is a sharp/sudden change in the turbo's boost output.

I can't help to think that a hot turbo housing cooling down rapidly wouldn't cause some kind of bad outcome.

Turbine housings are typically made of cast iron. However, their nickel content can vary. Higher nickel content is desirable, as it increases the housing's resistance to thermal cracking. On my (former) FWD Chryslers, the factory added more nickel to the later models for this very reason. Driving through puddles could splash water up onto the turbo, which could allow for cracks to form on the early low-nickel turbines. I would presume modern turbos have a decent amount of nickel, though that's just a guess on my part.

I've heard that a remote mount turbo with all the additional piping acts like a built in intercooler, which is very good.

Rick Squires used to tell everybody this when promoting his rear-mount systems, but all the engineers I've consulted (either in person or by reading their books on the matter) tend to disagree. Even a 12-foot piece of exhaust pipe makes a very poor intercooler, as it contains no turbulators or fins to "catch" heat and transfer it outside the pipe. Without these, the charge air has little opportunity to give up its heat... meaning you'll want to install an intercooler all the same.

All told, is there really a reason a turbo mounted to the exhaust manifold is out of the question?

This really is the important question. A turbocharger will never perform as well as when it is mounted close to the engine's exhaust outlet.

I don't know enough to know what yet, supercharger vs. turbo, still learning and looking at options.

Forced induction can be something special--almost magical, even. To maximize your satisfaction, you need to make a number of decisions up front. You should not simply ask yourself "turbo verses supercharger." Instead, you should be asking "turbo verses centrifugal supercharger verses positive displacement supercharger." Each of these has advantages over the other two, and each has drawbacks compared to the other two.

One thing I was looking into when I was considering adding a turbo to a FZJ80 was using methanol instead of an intercooler. You can buy kits that inject the methanol under boost, negating the need for an intercooler. The methanol helps control detonation and makes it safer to run under boost.

While this is true, it is looked down upon by a number of engineers and is often seen as a band-aid for a proper setup. By comparison, an air-to-air intercooler will never run out of methanol and cause you to melt pistons unexpectedly. While I do know some people who have run water injection on their street-driven turbo cars, personally I would never suggest such a setup to anyone.
 
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Tebbsjeep

Well-Known Member
Location
Ogden
If you want to talk to original STS guy, his name is Rick Squires. He bought back his intellectual property and some of the leftover parts when STS went under. He has a new shop called Squires Performance over by the Lindon marina area. It's a small place, but he knows his stuff.
 

mombobuggy

Well-Known Member
Location
Highland
Fantastic idea what Vehicle would not be improved by adding a little boost? Turbo technology has come a long way. I cant wait to try a ball bearing Turbo on one of my Turbo Motors. It would always amuse me when people would ask if my sand car had a lot of lag with four pounds of car per horsepower it was a bullet.
 

MikeGyver

UtahWeld.com
Location
Arem
I worked at STS for 5 years and built a custom turbo kit for my Camaro and did a ton of tuning on it. I can answer any of your questions about how they work and I have real experience with them not just internet hearsay.

A rear mount isn't a bad idea for something like this, not at all. Not putting the turbo setup under the crammed hood has tons of practical benefits. If you're doing actual racing and need every single HP you can get then there are better ways (or just some things you might need to do a little differently), as with anything it's a bit of a tradeoff.

I really doubt a river crossing would hurt the turbo at all. It won't be super hot unless your river crossing is at the end of a drag strip. When you're just putting around the temps drop close to what a muffler is, when you floor it a fireball and volume of expanded exhaust gas shoots down the pipe and. The temperature of the housing doesn't directly mean anything, the heat of the exhaust does and that can change instantly, unlike the housing temp.
If you put your hand in front of my camaros exhaust tip during a pull, the ~1 megawatt of heat would instantaneously char your hand. I personally did actual testing of the exhaust gas temps on a rear mounted system. They were about 750degrees at idle back at the turbo, then ramped up to a full ~1400degrees (matching the temp sensor up at the engine) in 3/4 second, at that point you're going to have the same efficiency as a front mount. In order to reduce the 3/4 second of potential lag, a size smaller turbine housing is commonly used. This might not be ideal on a race car (there are ways around this though) but for anything else its hardly an issue and pros usually vastly outweigh the cons.


Here's a video I made a while ago showing the lag on my car. Keep in mind the 6psi is adding about 50% more power to the stock V8, which is significant.

[video=youtube;rdjh3EY6shU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdjh3EY6shU[/video]
 
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Kevin B.

Not often wrong. Never quite right.
Moderator
Location
Stinkwater
Forced induction can be something special--almost magical, even. To maximize your satisfaction, you need to make a number of decisions up front. You should not simply ask yourself "turbo verses supercharger." Instead, you should be asking "turbo verses centrifugal supercharger verses positive displacement supercharger." Each of these has advantages over the other two, and each has drawbacks compared to the other two.

Thanks Dempsey, I was hoping you'd pop in. I'm sure I'll have many more specific questions once I get around to reading that book you recommended, but could you go into specifics here? I vaguely knew there were two or three different sorts of superchargers, but I didn't realize there was a significant difference in the effects of each.

I worked at STS for 5 years and built a custom turbo kit for my Camaro and did a ton of tuning on it. I can answer any of your questions about how they work and I have real experience with them not just internet hearsay.

A rear mount isn't a bad idea for something like this, not at all. Not putting the turbo setup under the crammed hood has tons of practical benefits. If you're doing actual racing and need every single HP you can get then there are better ways (or just some things you might need to do a little differently), as with anything it's a bit of a tradeoff.

I really doubt a river crossing would hurt the turbo at all. It won't be super hot unless your river crossing is at the end of a drag strip. When you're just putting around the temps drop close to what a muffler is, when you floor it a fireball and volume of expanded exhaust gas shoots down the pipe and. The temperature of the housing doesn't directly mean anything, the heat of the exhaust does and that can change instantly, unlike the housing temp.
If you put your hand in front of my camaros exhaust tip during a pull, the ~1 megawatt of heat would instantaneously char it. I personally did actual testing of the exhaust gas temps on a rear mounted system. They were about 750degrees at idle back at the turbo, then ramped up to a full ~1400degrees (matching the temp sensor up at the engine) in 3/4 second, at that point you're going to have the same efficiency as a front mount. In order to reduce the 3/4 second of potential lag, a size smaller turbine housing is commonly used. This might not be ideal on a race car (there are ways around this though) but for anything else its hardly an issue and pros usually vastly outweigh the cons.

Great input, Mike. In your video, I didn't really see/hear a difference between when your RPMs ramped up, when your boost went up, and when the Camaro actually started going faster. Is that because I don't know what I'm looking at, or because there really wasn't much lag there?
 
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