offroaddave
It's just one term!
- Location
- sunset
USA-ALL Blog
- Thread starter offroaddave
- Start date
Tacoma
Et incurventur ante non
- Location
- far enough away
I hope they start showing some concern for the 4wd community. Their utter ignorance regarding the Moab RMP, arguably the most high-profile issue lately, is pretty telling.
Brett
Meat-Hippy
- Location
- Salt Lake City Utah
Sad to say, but I've seen more concern for getting ATV's legal on the streets with them than anything about ANY of the RMP's.
- Location
- Grand Junction, CO
So... what the hell good are they? Seems like a few yrs ago USA-ALL was very involved in the offroad community, now they don't lift a finger in one of the most important issues to face the Utah offroad community? 
Tacoma
Et incurventur ante non
- Location
- far enough away
You ask the million dollar question, Greg. From what I've seen, they aren't much use at all. That could change, but at the moment they aren't too interested in issues that affect 4wd users, and they SEEM not to be very aggressive about pursuing access issues.
- Location
- Never Far From Nowhere
So... what the hell good are they? Seems like a few yrs ago USA-ALL was very involved in the offroad community, now they don't lift a finger in one of the most important issues to face the Utah offroad community?
No good anymore, which is sad because they still hold a certain level of clout. This ATV BS is starting to piss me off. I understand the 'angle' they are trying to work (If ATV's are street legal its easier to say that ATV trails are roads) but yeah, what about the f*cking RMP's?
What it comes down to is that certain people at USA-All have personal agendas and the current board is just rolling along as these individuals whipping boys. Do yourself a favor and pull your support of this organization and put that money towards Blue Ribbon or U4. At least they get stuff done that matters.
scoutabout
None
USA-ALL seems to have become a political lobbying group. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but who is going to fill the hole they're leaving in terms of on-the-ground intel gathering, statewide representation, legal fights, and such?
Skylinerider
Wandering the desert
- Location
- Ephraim
So... what the hell good are they? Seems like a few yrs ago USA-ALL was very involved in the offroad community, now they don't lift a finger in one of the most important issues to face the Utah offroad community?
This is the conclusion I've came to over the last year as well. Until they get their act together they won't see another dime from me. U4 gets all my donations. I know exactly what they do with my money, and that it benefits my chosen form of recreation and exploration.
offroaddave
It's just one term!
- Location
- sunset
I have to say I'm very suprised by the responses from you guys.
I don't think thev'e stoped supporting any one group, But put more support to other groups who are also contributing to "OUR" cause.
I always felt that we all were after the same goal, Shared access.
As far as who's going to fill the hole, Seems like that's a great opportunity for U4WDA.
Dave
I don't think thev'e stoped supporting any one group, But put more support to other groups who are also contributing to "OUR" cause.
I always felt that we all were after the same goal, Shared access.
As far as who's going to fill the hole, Seems like that's a great opportunity for U4WDA.
Dave
Skylinerider
Wandering the desert
- Location
- Ephraim
Dave, they might do good for all I know. BUT when I joined USA-ALL last year, I didn't hear a word from them, it's like they took my money and split. I was fully ready to get involved head over heels, but I couldn't even get them to return an email. It has seemed to me they haven't had their heads on straight over there for a couple years now. Yes access is the common goal, but I haven't seen a whole lot of action from them. Just my personal opinion and experience take it for what it's worth.
Tacoma
Et incurventur ante non
- Location
- far enough away
Do you call it "support" when they didn't lift a finger about the RMP's?
Actions speak louder than all their words. They are more concerned about decorating the offices than supporting access right now.
Actions speak louder than all their words. They are more concerned about decorating the offices than supporting access right now.
I would disagree. I know when Sam and I were working on setting up the MOAB RMP ride to the capitol we couldn't even get anyone to return a phone call or an email and all we wanted was for them to send the message out to all of the USA ALL people.....
my money goes to U4WDA
scoutabout
None
Did anyone make it to the rally at the capitol today? How did it go? Were there a lot of people there?
Tacoma
Et incurventur ante non
- Location
- far enough away
I missed it. I'm in BFE outside of Vernal still though.
utahmike
Lobbyist \ Consultant
- Location
- Salt Lake City, UT
USA-ALL Reponse
I know only a few people monitor and read this forum. I watch it semi-regularly. I hope this message gets to other people that share many of your concerns. I am a little surprised at the opinions and misinformation I am reading. I would WELCOME a phone call or personal meeting from any one of you to discuss these issues further. You can call me at the office at 801-798-6996. I want to address a few issues discussed in the previous posts.
1- It seems U4WDA has placed most or all of their "land use eggs" in one basket. That being RMP's. I hear so many people talking about RMPs and the associated comments as though it was the end all be all in motorized access to public land. Granted they are important plans and obviously have a significant effect on the public. But before you berate USA-ALL for what you feel is apathy you need to understand a few things. First USA-ALL was going through some pretty tough times for most of 2007. You can point the finger where ever you would like but the blame lies with many. At the time for public involvement USA-ALL was trying to keep it's head above water. By the time I started back with USA-ALL in September I felt the best way to work on the Moab RMP was to give as much support to BRC as we could. Keeping in mind we still had a lot of internal problems to resolve. BRC had been working on it all summer when USA-ALL was floundering. We sent money to BRC we worked with them and COHVCO on joint comments (BRC did 99.9 % of the work), and made the best out of a bad situation. Should USA-ALL have done more? Absolutely, but considering all the situation we couldn’t have done much if anything more.
Another thing you need to consider is that USA-ALL has been intimately involved in many RMPs and similar plans. It has been our experience and the experience of others who are knowledgeable on the subject that public comments primarily serve one purpose and that is to establish legal standing in the event you need to take legal action later. Some people think that public comments will change the final plan. I would love to see an example with hard evidence that public comments significantly changed any final RMP. I would submit that your efforts are better spent on DRMP alternative development and not on public comments. So if you view our lack of raising the alarm for people to send in comments or as meaning USA-ALL doesn’t care about your issues you are simply wrong. You also don’t view the value of the planning process the same as we do. Nor do you know what other more effective ways an organization might better change a final RMP. We still are working on things with the Governors office to do that. And at that level you can get changes made. I could say a lot more on this subject but I will stop at the risk of getting too lengthy and boring you. There is so much going on behind the scenes that effect our decisions to assume it is as simple as," USA-ALL doesn't care" care is wrong. Call me and I will gladly talk to any of you about USA-ALL and RMP's and anything else you want.
2- USA-ALL is not a lobbying organization, but we are actively involved with government and legislative affairs. We have to be, and we have been effective at it. It has produced significant results for the public at large. It doesn’t mean we don’t care about legal battles or trail closures. But when the problems we deal with are systematic you have to take steps to fix the system and that means being involved with governments. We cannot continue to beat our heads against a brick wall and fight individual closures and ignore the bigger problem. That problem is a bad policy and a broken system within certain government agencies. Our work with legislators and others is a beginning to a better solution.
3- USA-ALL has not represented the full size 4x4 community like it should have. When I started a few years ago they focused mostly on motorcycle issues. I made concerted efforts to extend our involvement with snowmobile, ATV, and full size 4x4s. My mode of off-roading was and is a '77 Ford Bronco. It has taken some time to broaden our base. And we still have a ways to go. There seems to have been a falling out over the past year with U4WDA and USA-ALL, I could speculate why, but that wouldn’t solve the problem. I am positive many U4 members have not been given the complete picture. Given enough time that will sort it’s self out. I can tell you that we do care about full size issues, people who have been in meetings with the Uinta National Forest can attest to this. I wish we had been better on the Moab RMP but we were barely able to keep ourselves together during that time. It was unbelievably bad timing. We were actively involved in other RMP's particularly before the implosion last spring.
4- to the guy and no doubt there are many others who sent us a donation and never heard form us. I am so sorry. That has been a big problem of ours. You aren’t the only one who has that complaint. There is no excuse for it, we just screwed up. We are a small organization and sometimes we try to do too many things and the bread and butter things like taking care and thanking our members gets lost in the shuffle. Its unacceptable and we have taken steps to correct it. Ultimately the blame is on me. If you would like to try us again, let me give you a complimentary membership and if you feel we’ve improved you can consider donating to us again. I guess I would just say to you or ANYONE out there if your upset at us, call us and tell us what’s up. We need to hear from you. We want to improve, but if you just sit and stew about it and only complain to your buds around the campfire but never let us know we have screwed up it makes it harder for us to improve. So call please. Email is okay to but calling is the best.
When I started in the fall of 2004 USA-ALL had barley avoided bankruptcy, and had the lowest active membership since its creation. Our donations had dipped to next to nothing. It has taken a lot of work and effort to get this thing back on track and we had to right the ship again last year, luckily we had enough members and donations coming in we didn’t sink. You may have your own opinion of USA-ALL but here are the facts: 2006 was the highest level of active members we have ever had. 2006 was the second highest amount of donations ever received. 2007 would have been higher than 2006 in both things as well had we not had our internal problems. We have been refined and will be better and stronger than ever. It seems like USA-ALL is just now getting things back together. We have hired new staff, have new offices, reorganized our organizational bylaws, refined our board, and we are poised to improve significantly this year. I am really sad to read some of the things posted. Some of the complaints are justified and we are to blame, some of the complaints are based on inaccurate information. Either way there is enough vitriol and venom out there between groups like USA-ALL and SUWA. We don’t need it between organizations that should be partners and allies. USA-ALL and U4WDA are not competitors we should be partners. U4 may have disagreements on some things we do and even some ways we spend our money, that is okay, but the bashing that seems to come from one side to the other needs to stop. The resentment needs to stop. A hand of partnership and friendship should be extended, accepted and reciprocated. I for one have appreciated the good work U4WDA has done. You guys have made great progress and we are excited for you to continue. We would hope that rather than kick us while we're down you would do all you can to help us be the organization that you think we should be. I believe there is still hope for that, but as long as misinformed opinions are out there actively undermining the good we do that hope will not likely come to fruition. It is for that purpose that I again extend the invitation to call me or meet me personally for an afternoon or evening meeting. If you will do this we will be able to fix the valuable relationship that we should have between the 4x4 community and USA-ALL. We may need to have a meeting were all the USA-ALL “haters” come together and let us have it and work through your concerns. I’m open to resolving this matter fully and completely. But the backbiting and USA-ALL bashing really needs to stop. What can we do to fix the problems?
I know only a few people monitor and read this forum. I watch it semi-regularly. I hope this message gets to other people that share many of your concerns. I am a little surprised at the opinions and misinformation I am reading. I would WELCOME a phone call or personal meeting from any one of you to discuss these issues further. You can call me at the office at 801-798-6996. I want to address a few issues discussed in the previous posts.
1- It seems U4WDA has placed most or all of their "land use eggs" in one basket. That being RMP's. I hear so many people talking about RMPs and the associated comments as though it was the end all be all in motorized access to public land. Granted they are important plans and obviously have a significant effect on the public. But before you berate USA-ALL for what you feel is apathy you need to understand a few things. First USA-ALL was going through some pretty tough times for most of 2007. You can point the finger where ever you would like but the blame lies with many. At the time for public involvement USA-ALL was trying to keep it's head above water. By the time I started back with USA-ALL in September I felt the best way to work on the Moab RMP was to give as much support to BRC as we could. Keeping in mind we still had a lot of internal problems to resolve. BRC had been working on it all summer when USA-ALL was floundering. We sent money to BRC we worked with them and COHVCO on joint comments (BRC did 99.9 % of the work), and made the best out of a bad situation. Should USA-ALL have done more? Absolutely, but considering all the situation we couldn’t have done much if anything more.
Another thing you need to consider is that USA-ALL has been intimately involved in many RMPs and similar plans. It has been our experience and the experience of others who are knowledgeable on the subject that public comments primarily serve one purpose and that is to establish legal standing in the event you need to take legal action later. Some people think that public comments will change the final plan. I would love to see an example with hard evidence that public comments significantly changed any final RMP. I would submit that your efforts are better spent on DRMP alternative development and not on public comments. So if you view our lack of raising the alarm for people to send in comments or as meaning USA-ALL doesn’t care about your issues you are simply wrong. You also don’t view the value of the planning process the same as we do. Nor do you know what other more effective ways an organization might better change a final RMP. We still are working on things with the Governors office to do that. And at that level you can get changes made. I could say a lot more on this subject but I will stop at the risk of getting too lengthy and boring you. There is so much going on behind the scenes that effect our decisions to assume it is as simple as," USA-ALL doesn't care" care is wrong. Call me and I will gladly talk to any of you about USA-ALL and RMP's and anything else you want.
2- USA-ALL is not a lobbying organization, but we are actively involved with government and legislative affairs. We have to be, and we have been effective at it. It has produced significant results for the public at large. It doesn’t mean we don’t care about legal battles or trail closures. But when the problems we deal with are systematic you have to take steps to fix the system and that means being involved with governments. We cannot continue to beat our heads against a brick wall and fight individual closures and ignore the bigger problem. That problem is a bad policy and a broken system within certain government agencies. Our work with legislators and others is a beginning to a better solution.
3- USA-ALL has not represented the full size 4x4 community like it should have. When I started a few years ago they focused mostly on motorcycle issues. I made concerted efforts to extend our involvement with snowmobile, ATV, and full size 4x4s. My mode of off-roading was and is a '77 Ford Bronco. It has taken some time to broaden our base. And we still have a ways to go. There seems to have been a falling out over the past year with U4WDA and USA-ALL, I could speculate why, but that wouldn’t solve the problem. I am positive many U4 members have not been given the complete picture. Given enough time that will sort it’s self out. I can tell you that we do care about full size issues, people who have been in meetings with the Uinta National Forest can attest to this. I wish we had been better on the Moab RMP but we were barely able to keep ourselves together during that time. It was unbelievably bad timing. We were actively involved in other RMP's particularly before the implosion last spring.
4- to the guy and no doubt there are many others who sent us a donation and never heard form us. I am so sorry. That has been a big problem of ours. You aren’t the only one who has that complaint. There is no excuse for it, we just screwed up. We are a small organization and sometimes we try to do too many things and the bread and butter things like taking care and thanking our members gets lost in the shuffle. Its unacceptable and we have taken steps to correct it. Ultimately the blame is on me. If you would like to try us again, let me give you a complimentary membership and if you feel we’ve improved you can consider donating to us again. I guess I would just say to you or ANYONE out there if your upset at us, call us and tell us what’s up. We need to hear from you. We want to improve, but if you just sit and stew about it and only complain to your buds around the campfire but never let us know we have screwed up it makes it harder for us to improve. So call please. Email is okay to but calling is the best.
When I started in the fall of 2004 USA-ALL had barley avoided bankruptcy, and had the lowest active membership since its creation. Our donations had dipped to next to nothing. It has taken a lot of work and effort to get this thing back on track and we had to right the ship again last year, luckily we had enough members and donations coming in we didn’t sink. You may have your own opinion of USA-ALL but here are the facts: 2006 was the highest level of active members we have ever had. 2006 was the second highest amount of donations ever received. 2007 would have been higher than 2006 in both things as well had we not had our internal problems. We have been refined and will be better and stronger than ever. It seems like USA-ALL is just now getting things back together. We have hired new staff, have new offices, reorganized our organizational bylaws, refined our board, and we are poised to improve significantly this year. I am really sad to read some of the things posted. Some of the complaints are justified and we are to blame, some of the complaints are based on inaccurate information. Either way there is enough vitriol and venom out there between groups like USA-ALL and SUWA. We don’t need it between organizations that should be partners and allies. USA-ALL and U4WDA are not competitors we should be partners. U4 may have disagreements on some things we do and even some ways we spend our money, that is okay, but the bashing that seems to come from one side to the other needs to stop. The resentment needs to stop. A hand of partnership and friendship should be extended, accepted and reciprocated. I for one have appreciated the good work U4WDA has done. You guys have made great progress and we are excited for you to continue. We would hope that rather than kick us while we're down you would do all you can to help us be the organization that you think we should be. I believe there is still hope for that, but as long as misinformed opinions are out there actively undermining the good we do that hope will not likely come to fruition. It is for that purpose that I again extend the invitation to call me or meet me personally for an afternoon or evening meeting. If you will do this we will be able to fix the valuable relationship that we should have between the 4x4 community and USA-ALL. We may need to have a meeting were all the USA-ALL “haters” come together and let us have it and work through your concerns. I’m open to resolving this matter fully and completely. But the backbiting and USA-ALL bashing really needs to stop. What can we do to fix the problems?
utahmike
Lobbyist \ Consultant
- Location
- Salt Lake City, UT
Do you guys realize that HCR 5 came from USA-ALL? HCR 5 (Protecting RS 2477 Rights) was solely from and the idea of USA-ALL and our partners at Western Counties Alliance and a lot of help from Commissioner Mark Habbeshaw. On HJR 10 we worked with the bill sponsors just before the session. It was their idea but we have helped out extensively and pushed this resolution. How can you say we don’t support 4X4 issues when we we're pushing these bills? NOT ONCE did someone from any other "motorized type" organization testify in a committee or spend any time on Capitol Hill lobbying these bills. It was primarily USA-ALL.
The rally we had a few weeks ago was successful we got some public radio press and a small article in the Deseret News and the purpose of the rally wasn’t “rah-rah, USA-ALL” it was showing a united front by the motorized community. It was for ALL motorized recreationists. I can’t help it if you weren’t there but representatives from 4x4 clubs were there. Some people drove all the way from Moab. I wish U4WDA had been there.
We deserve credit for the good work we do and that work includes much for the 4x4 community. We still could be better but it will be difficult to be better with out your support.
The rally we had a few weeks ago was successful we got some public radio press and a small article in the Deseret News and the purpose of the rally wasn’t “rah-rah, USA-ALL” it was showing a united front by the motorized community. It was for ALL motorized recreationists. I can’t help it if you weren’t there but representatives from 4x4 clubs were there. Some people drove all the way from Moab. I wish U4WDA had been there.
We deserve credit for the good work we do and that work includes much for the 4x4 community. We still could be better but it will be difficult to be better with out your support.
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Skylinerider
Wandering the desert
- Location
- Ephraim
Let me know when they do.
Thanks for admitting that. Honestly Mike I was pretty excited to join USA-All, I was all ready to support you fully and volunteer for anything you needed, then to get what I felt was a brush off was pretty lame. It sour'd me to your organization pretty bad.
I know you guys do most of your work on the "hill" and the OHV community does need that work and I thank you for any work you do.
I don't speak for U4 or any other organization other than myself and my family, but I have seen what U4 has done, and I am impressed
Those sorts of things are what folks need to know about, but when you take peoples money and they don't hear about what you are doing, they (and I mean me) assume you aren't doing anything other than putting up billboards.
Again I only speak of what I have personally experienced and I don't represent any organization. I hope things really are better with USA-All and I wish you the best.
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Kiel
Formerly WJ ZUK
Why does a percentage of my donated money go to your fundraiser employee who never solicited me about my donation but gets a gross percentage off the top of your gross income? When I donate, I want the money to go to help the 4x4 comunity- not pay someone for going to the bank to cash my check.
- Location
- Sandy, Ut
Thanks for the reply Mike, I appreciate you taking the time to do so.
I think alot of the frustration we felt over Usa-All's involvement on the RMP's derived partially from your own members. We hosted a handful of "comment writing" parties, in several cases we had Usa-All members (not affiliated with any of our member clubs or U4WDA) attend, they were rather dismayed at the last minute efforts on behalf of Usa-All... and didn't hesitate to pass it onto us and voice it without disregard. The BRC Moab RMP info was out weeks before it was sent out to your members, if your plans were to cut/paste it, why not do it with some time for members to respond? In another case you informed your members of an upcoming RMP and even went as far as to say "look for more info on the RMP in the coming days", and the info never came as far as we were told. I understand you have some internal issues... enough said.
I personally beg to differ on the importance and purpose of RMP comments, while your belief might be true in the case of "generic" comments that cite nothing, the majority of the comments we solicited were very detailed, all we can do is hope, but this is the #1 thing your average member can do to support motorized access, helping them do so should have been a priority IMO. Leaving them hanging or with no info at all was leaving them in the dark IMO.
The rest of the friction is neither here nor there, do know the issue is not just with individual members of our BOD, rather the Board reached a concensus on our own, and that was after allowing several of your BOD members to speak as to the importance of Usa-All at one of our recent meetings. There were issues with the donations made on behalf of U4WDA, as well as issues with the way Usa-All seemingly represented itself amongst the 4x4 crowd (EJS booth for example). I too hope we can work past these issues, there will need to be changes on both sides, one major issue being the current Usa-All policy on BOD meetings which IIRC is the reason we are not currently allocating any funds to Usa-All? Fingers crossed we can smooth things out.
I think alot of the frustration we felt over Usa-All's involvement on the RMP's derived partially from your own members. We hosted a handful of "comment writing" parties, in several cases we had Usa-All members (not affiliated with any of our member clubs or U4WDA) attend, they were rather dismayed at the last minute efforts on behalf of Usa-All... and didn't hesitate to pass it onto us and voice it without disregard. The BRC Moab RMP info was out weeks before it was sent out to your members, if your plans were to cut/paste it, why not do it with some time for members to respond? In another case you informed your members of an upcoming RMP and even went as far as to say "look for more info on the RMP in the coming days", and the info never came as far as we were told. I understand you have some internal issues... enough said.
I personally beg to differ on the importance and purpose of RMP comments, while your belief might be true in the case of "generic" comments that cite nothing, the majority of the comments we solicited were very detailed, all we can do is hope, but this is the #1 thing your average member can do to support motorized access, helping them do so should have been a priority IMO. Leaving them hanging or with no info at all was leaving them in the dark IMO.
The rest of the friction is neither here nor there, do know the issue is not just with individual members of our BOD, rather the Board reached a concensus on our own, and that was after allowing several of your BOD members to speak as to the importance of Usa-All at one of our recent meetings. There were issues with the donations made on behalf of U4WDA, as well as issues with the way Usa-All seemingly represented itself amongst the 4x4 crowd (EJS booth for example). I too hope we can work past these issues, there will need to be changes on both sides, one major issue being the current Usa-All policy on BOD meetings which IIRC is the reason we are not currently allocating any funds to Usa-All? Fingers crossed we can smooth things out.
Well.. we agree on one thing...
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