v6 to v8 conversion; passing emmisions
- Thread starter lewis
- Start date
Technically; it needs to be same year or newer than the vehicle it's going in. Needs to be of the same manufacturing cooperation. (Toyota/Lexus in your case), all emissions crap must be present and you must pass a smog test with both the standards of the vehicle the motor came from and the vehicle it's going in.
Unimog
Eric
- Location
- Stansbury Park, UT
This means all the emissions equipment from the donor needs to be there, even if the vehicle originally didn't have it.
You need to take the final results to an official county owned station for the inspection. My experience is that they are pretty good to work with if you do a good clean job.
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It never hurts to sit and talk with them (referee sort of) beofre you start such a project. In California it means the difference between passing and never having that vehicle on the road EVER again. Once the smog Nazis flag a vehicle, forget about it getting through. I HOPE that never happens here.
sixstringsteve
Well-Known Member
- Location
- UT
if anyone does clean work it's Lewis.
RockChucker
Well-Known Member
- Location
- Highland
I just finished putting a gm 5.3 in my TJ. It is emissions legal here in salt lake county. So the same manufacturer deal doesnt mean much apparently.
From what I understand, it just has Ti pass emissions for the year that the vehicle is, not what the engine is out of. When I went to the slvhd to get mine tested, they asked me what year it was. When I told them it was a 97 they looked kind of bummed fearing that it would not be able to pass an obd2 test. They were relieved when it could.
With that said, in doing the swap, it is not too much harder to integrate the emissions from the existing vehicle as long as you can give the PCM all the info it is looking for. The hardest one for me to adapt was the fuel level sensor do it could run all the evap tests. But if you are older than 96, you could just tune those codes out and you shouldn't have a problem. Like was mentioned though, I would call the slvhd or the county head quarters where you are and talk to a county ref to see what they have to say.
From what I understand, it just has Ti pass emissions for the year that the vehicle is, not what the engine is out of. When I went to the slvhd to get mine tested, they asked me what year it was. When I told them it was a 97 they looked kind of bummed fearing that it would not be able to pass an obd2 test. They were relieved when it could.
With that said, in doing the swap, it is not too much harder to integrate the emissions from the existing vehicle as long as you can give the PCM all the info it is looking for. The hardest one for me to adapt was the fuel level sensor do it could run all the evap tests. But if you are older than 96, you could just tune those codes out and you shouldn't have a problem. Like was mentioned though, I would call the slvhd or the county head quarters where you are and talk to a county ref to see what they have to say.
it is not legal, but read what i say next anyway
i am a former emissions inspector, i have done 10+ 4cyl/6cyl to v8 swaps, i also have a v6 to v8 swap in my bronco ii. in 2010 i even called the main testing station on vine st (anonymously) and asked these questions
he said:
no it is not legal, and he cannot tell me "go ahead and do it"
but he said if a person were to ignore the laws and go ahead and do it that they usually do not condemn the vehicle, they will just approach it as "welp, whats done is done"
the rules are normally, it must be:
1) an engine that came as an option in that vehicle for that year (so the ford explorer 4.0 swap into a broncoii with a 2.9 isn't technically legal, but i know 10 guys with that swap, they don't hassle them)
2) the same size of engine or smaller (4.0 jeep to 2.5 ok, but not vice-versa)
3) equipped with all the same emissions controls as would have been equipped on that engine/year
4) same number of miles on engine or less
but he said that so long as you take an unmolested engine (he specifically said that he usually turns away big camshafts, and "hack jobs"), engine management, all emissions controls all from the same model year or newer he will test it and see if it passes
but on paper it is not "legal", it is literally up to what kind of mood he is in, he is an older gentleman, smarter than hell (over the years i have gone in for v8 swap emissions, waivers etc.) he has seen it all and you usually can't pull one over on him. but he is a good guy, not a nazi. if it passes he really doesn't care. so long as you don't walk in there with the attitude of "you are required to pass this" if you do he will turn you away
the biggest part is if it is newer, the fact is that a 2.3l from 1994, has higher emissions than a 5.7l from 1995 due to annually increasing epa restrictions, so basically you could put a big-block 7.4l in place of a 1.0l 4-cyl and it would emit less so long as it was a properly functioning newer engine. that is all that really matters
i am a former emissions inspector, i have done 10+ 4cyl/6cyl to v8 swaps, i also have a v6 to v8 swap in my bronco ii. in 2010 i even called the main testing station on vine st (anonymously) and asked these questions
he said:
no it is not legal, and he cannot tell me "go ahead and do it"
but he said if a person were to ignore the laws and go ahead and do it that they usually do not condemn the vehicle, they will just approach it as "welp, whats done is done"
the rules are normally, it must be:
1) an engine that came as an option in that vehicle for that year (so the ford explorer 4.0 swap into a broncoii with a 2.9 isn't technically legal, but i know 10 guys with that swap, they don't hassle them)
2) the same size of engine or smaller (4.0 jeep to 2.5 ok, but not vice-versa)
3) equipped with all the same emissions controls as would have been equipped on that engine/year
4) same number of miles on engine or less
but he said that so long as you take an unmolested engine (he specifically said that he usually turns away big camshafts, and "hack jobs"), engine management, all emissions controls all from the same model year or newer he will test it and see if it passes
but on paper it is not "legal", it is literally up to what kind of mood he is in, he is an older gentleman, smarter than hell (over the years i have gone in for v8 swap emissions, waivers etc.) he has seen it all and you usually can't pull one over on him. but he is a good guy, not a nazi. if it passes he really doesn't care. so long as you don't walk in there with the attitude of "you are required to pass this" if you do he will turn you away
the biggest part is if it is newer, the fact is that a 2.3l from 1994, has higher emissions than a 5.7l from 1995 due to annually increasing epa restrictions, so basically you could put a big-block 7.4l in place of a 1.0l 4-cyl and it would emit less so long as it was a properly functioning newer engine. that is all that really matters
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gertsch
Well-Known Member
- Location
- West Bountiful
It's different between salt lake county and weber and Davis county. 89 and older you can pretty much do whatever you want in Davis and weber as long as it passes tail pipe standard for that vehicle year. 90 and new has to be a engine of the same year or newer and offered as an option for the vehicle.
- Location
- Sandy, Ut
Lots of mis-information... go to the source. If you live in SL County:
" 4.3.9. Engine Changes. Vehicles qualifying for testing under this part shall not be eligible for a repair waiver.
(i) Vehicles model year 1968 to 1983 shall be tested according to the year of the vehicle (regardless of the year of the engine) and may be tested at any station.
(ii) If a 1984 and newer vehicle has an engine other than the original, the vehicle owner must have the vehicle inspected by the Department and must demonstrate to the Director that the emission control systems on that engine are equally or more effective in controlling emissions as those systems originally manufactured on the vehicle before a Certification of Compliance is issued.
(iii) Kit cars must be inspected by the Department and may be inspected according to the year of the engine provided that the owner can provide appropriate documentation. "
http://www.slvhealth.org/envRegs/reg22aVehicleInspec.html
" 4.3.9. Engine Changes. Vehicles qualifying for testing under this part shall not be eligible for a repair waiver.
(i) Vehicles model year 1968 to 1983 shall be tested according to the year of the vehicle (regardless of the year of the engine) and may be tested at any station.
(ii) If a 1984 and newer vehicle has an engine other than the original, the vehicle owner must have the vehicle inspected by the Department and must demonstrate to the Director that the emission control systems on that engine are equally or more effective in controlling emissions as those systems originally manufactured on the vehicle before a Certification of Compliance is issued.
(iii) Kit cars must be inspected by the Department and may be inspected according to the year of the engine provided that the owner can provide appropriate documentation. "
http://www.slvhealth.org/envRegs/reg22aVehicleInspec.html
straight from the salt lake valley health department official......
again, straight from his mouth....
any person who doubts should just pick up the phone and call him themselves, online link or not
Air Pollution Control
788 E. Woodoak Lane (5380 S)
Murray, Utah 84107-6379
(385) 468-3837
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- Location
- Sandy, Ut
As is mine, and its not from a mouth, its from their own code (which was adopted by the State Law)
Sorry, laws trump mouths.
"Some Internet Link", that is the Salt Lake County's official website, official codes and official rules on engine swaps. Its not some random "internet link" lol.
No need to repeat yourself, I get that you don't believe THEIR own codes
For giggles I did call, spoke with Ed Jensen whom is in charge of inspecting the swaps. While he obviously can't give a "green light" over the phone, he said so long as you follow their rules (he referenced those found on their website
, which state you must retain the emissions controls of the newer motor such as air pump, catalytic converter, etc, it should pass their visual inspection and is completely legal, both on paper and in the real world. As a scenario I gave him a 1985 FJ60 that I'm helping a customer with. He is putting a 1989 TBI SBC, Ed said should be fine. Don't make it a "hack job" (Ed's words not mine ) and bring it in for the inspection.
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sixstringsteve
Well-Known Member
- Location
- UT
are you thinking of a 4.7 lewis?
it was 2 years ago, but i still remember what a point he made to use the words "hack job"
did he say that technically federal emissions laws trump state laws? (as with all laws federal trump state laws, even if they contradict) he made it a point to tell me that
and the bullet-points 1 through 4 i listed were federal emissions laws.
part of which are seen here (this is only a memo, it doesn't have the complete, and comprehensive laws listed)
http://www.epa.gov/compliance/enforcement/air/documents/fuelwaivers/engswitch.pdf
i site statements like:
*edit, i didn't mean to repeat myself on that last one, it was an accidental matter of "cut-and-paste" duplication, i deleted the duplications
did he say that technically federal emissions laws trump state laws? (as with all laws federal trump state laws, even if they contradict) he made it a point to tell me that
and the bullet-points 1 through 4 i listed were federal emissions laws.
part of which are seen here (this is only a memo, it doesn't have the complete, and comprehensive laws listed)
http://www.epa.gov/compliance/enforcement/air/documents/fuelwaivers/engswitch.pdf
i site statements like:
*edit, i didn't mean to repeat myself on that last one, it was an accidental matter of "cut-and-paste" duplication, i deleted the duplications
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gertsch
Well-Known Member
- Location
- West Bountiful
Sl is way more flexible then Davis county that's for sure.
I have lots of thoughts at 3 am. not sure what to do at this point. Something has to be done, something.....
- Location
- Sandy, Ut
Nope, he made no mention.
So the last hundred times I've registered cars at the DMV they have never asked for an emissions certificate from Washington DC
, and my piece of paper from Salt Lake County is as legal as I care to be. That said, I'll indulge. I'm not seeing anything there that would indicate a gas to gas motor swap into a light-duty vehicle (such as any passenger vehicle or truck we are worried about) would be in contrast to the State of Utah's ruling:
"For light-duty vehicles, installation of a light-duty engine into a different light-duty vehicle by any
person would be considered tampering unless the resulting vehicle is identical (with regard to all
emission related parts, engine design parameters, and engine calibrations) to a certified configuration of
the same or newer model year as the vehicle chassis, or if there is a reasonable basis for knowing that
emissions are not adversely affected as described in Memo 1A. The appropriate source for technical
information regarding the certified configuration of a vehicle of a particular model year is the vehicle
manufacturer."
Check, that agrees with SL Counties code
"It should be noted that while EPA's policy allows engine switches as long as the resulting vehicle
matches exactly to anv certified configuration of the same or newer model year as the chassis, there are
some substantial practical limitations to performing such a replacement"
Check. That is saying that the motor you swap must have been a certified configuration in a newer chassis and furthermore you retain the emissions components to the new motor. It goes on to say it may be cost prohibitive to retain the use the newer emissions chassis but it never says it is not allowed.
"State or local programs which pass illegally engine switched vehicles may mislead federally regulated parties
into believing that engine switching is allowed by federal law."
And until we see the actual federal law (memo is about as valid as a mouth
), its neither here nor there. Furthermore, I really don't give 2 shits if the federal government doesn't approve an engine swap so long as my State does and the DMV hands me tags and a license plate. By the raise of hands how many of you have ever been pulled over by a federal agent questioning your charcoal canister placement
- Location
- Sandy, Ut
