what happened to "anti-access- moab thread"?

Capt. Picky

quite
Location
Moab, UT.
The subject tag speaks for the purpose of my present post. In the middle of a reply/preview yesterday evening... poof... "invalid link" message was displayed. My post count has dropped to zero; the last entry posted was listed as a day earler in that forum.

This morning.... thread was back and listed. Checked a little later (and even now)... Gone again.
http://www.rockymountainextreme.com/showthread.php?t=19793

Has anyone (Admin?) an idea? Do threads just disappear at this forum? No "Closed"; "Locked"; "Moved". No word from Admin.

Dare I ask... What gives?

Capt. Picky
 

Caleb

Well-Known Member
Location
Riverton
the thread originator deleted it. I think he figured at this point in the game (before everyone has been contacted and we know 100% for sure what the true "black list" is) it was doing more damage then good. If a thread is inappropriate we (mods and admins) will pull them and 9 out of 10 times a PM will be sent to the originator explaining why it was removed, sometimes its self-explanatory. We had nothing to do with this thread ;)
 

Capt. Picky

quite
Location
Moab, UT.
Greetings -

I thank you for your rapid reply to my query.

However, in an overall sense I'm a bit less than satisfied with that reply. My efforts have now all been undone. Why not - and I *know* it can be done - leave the reply posts in place which direct attention to the single businesses (such as my own) who have responded so that the *TRUTH* can be seen? Why not simply apply Admin/Moderator abilities and edit the actual 'blacklisted business names' until such time that absolute confirmation is arrived at? There were links in other forums which pointed to that thread... Now *all* is lost. In my opinion this forum was the better one of the lot, with the widest most balanced audience. Gone. :-|

Yes, it was easy to just remove the post, but the damage was already done - TWICE. Makes me wonder where I stand - between a rock and a hard place - First SUWA, then the posts in such forums jumping to unverified conclusions/ call to some action.
After all, this isn't the first time that organizations such as the one in question have twisted the truth to to make their point, or have used shifty methods to gain support. Maybe matters should have been investigated more thoroughly beforehand imo. Somewhat akin to being a woodworker / metalworker... 'measure twice; cut once'.

As far as I can ascertain, it's better to have 100% truth, than 1% guesswork. Pity that this wasn't arrived at before the post was submitted by the OP. Of course I tried my best to clarify matters regarding *MY BUSINESS* which was listed - erroneously / surreptitiously I might add - in that SUWA advertisement campaign. Then to add insult to injury, it was again wrongly slammed by being erroneously listed in this forum by this OP as well as in others. This occurred both as original posts and copy/pastes. This really chaps my hide. :-\

Capt. Picky
 

Hickey

Burn-barrel enthusiast
Supporting Member
I agree with the good captain. The overall message of the rest of the thread was positive. Edit the buisness names with a notation in their place explaining what has happened.
 

Greg

I run a tight ship... wreck
Admin
I can understand why you're frustrated, I would be too if I were in your shoes.

Would you like a copy of your posts? We should be able to arrange that. If the person who deleted the thread would be intrested, we might be able to restore the whole thing.

We're trying to help.... :sick:
 

utahmike

Lobbyist \ Consultant
Supergper said:
the thread originator deleted it. I think he figured at this point in the game (before everyone has been contacted and we know 100% for sure what the true "black list" is) it was doing more damage then good. If a thread is inappropriate we (mods and admins) will pull them and 9 out of 10 times a PM will be sent to the originator explaining why it was removed, sometimes its self-explanatory. We had nothing to do with this thread ;)

This is a little disturbing to me. was the list a "black list"? or was it info similar to the thread i have started? because contacting ALL of these businesses is a good thing. As long as you arent rude. The bad guys will know we are on to them and the good guys will know we have and will continue to support them. I havent said black list anyone other than those who trully side w/ SUWA and if the business is to gutless to admit one way or the other, we must assume they arent on our side. (Dont even think about trying the "Innocent untill proven guilty" argument.) this is fundamentally different. We must fight back and protect our community and those who subscribe to similar ideals. This is serious stuff and it's just the begining.
 

Caleb

Well-Known Member
Location
Riverton
utahmike said:
This is a little disturbing to me. was the list a "black list"? or was it info similar to the thread i have started? because contacting ALL of these businesses is a good thing. As long as you arent rude. The bad guys will know we are on to them and the good guys will know we have and will continue to support them. I havent said black list anyone other than those who trully side w/ SUWA and if the business is to gutless to admit one way or the other, we must assume they arent on our side. (Dont even think about trying the "Innocent untill proven guilty" argument.) this is fundamentally different. We must fight back and protect our community and those who subscribe to similar ideals. This is serious stuff and it's just the begining.


It was basically EXACTLY what you posted. I did read your entire thread but that doesn;t mean everyone will. Some people may just browse throught eh names notice some familiar names and call it a day. Meaning it may hurt those that shouldn't be on the list in the first place.

As for your post doing no good now Captn, I disagree. I know for sure its been quoted in its entirety on PBB (the largest of all the 4wd sites) and has cleared up any question as to where you stand on the issue for atleast myself, and I am sure for MANY others. Like I said, we (the mods or admins) had nothing to do with the thread disappearing. You would have to talk with Steven (SRN) about that, and as Greg point out, we would not have a problem bringing it back with SRN's permission. It was his post and he can do what he likes with his post as long as its within the rules of the board. I think your biggest concern right now it to keep your name OFF any future lists of the sort, including people just reposting that original list rather than trying to explain why you were on the list orignially.
 

Capt. Picky

quite
Location
Moab, UT.
results found part I

Greetings to all -

My post will be too long in the number of characters permitted... therefore I have the choice to either re-edit it, or to post it in two sections. Due to the nature of the case at hand and the fact that my prior posts were deleted along with the OP's post, I have to choose the latter.

It has taken two days to get any info on this matter from a SUWA representative, and unfortunately not the representative who was/is most likely responsible for recruiting supporters. Again, in my own case, I've not signed a single notice of agreement to such a petition. I have not seen, nor had not seen or spoken to a SUWA representative before, during, or initially after said petition was created or posted in the Salt Lake Tribune or any other place in which it may have been posted. The existence of this petition was entirely unknown to me until the first day I posted in this forum or any other forum, which would have been this last Wednesday.

Also, I should state that although I've had *zero* personal communication between the SUWA representive in question at any time, I've been informed by my wife that she had some brief talk with one of them. However, she signed no document of any kind. If anything, what I can gather is that if any agreement was arrived at (and that was gotten in some rather sneaky fashion), it was done via telephone and was obtained in a semi-confusing (to her) manner.

Please permit to to elucidate the actual instance. I have now learned that while she never signed any document, she may have inadvertantly given a nod of agreement to the general picture. If you're still with me this far, I can bore you (and perhaps will infuriate you) with the details. None of this will now come easily for me, but as I am a person who tries to be thorough and always truthful, I've no choice in the matter but to state things as I have now come to understand them no matter how painful they may be. I'll write this in a categorical manner so as to list things in their respective order of appearance. The first thing which I ask you to take note of is that my wife's primary language is French and not English. (which I don't offer as any excuse, but simply as a FYI.)

1) A Suwa representative came to our place of business and asked if she would support this petition.
2) My wife inquired " what petition, what is it about?"
3) The Suwa rep verbally outlined in broad stokes the gist of the petition/open letter to the Governor.
4) My wife inquired if there was some document which she could look at.
5) The SUWA rep produced a copy of the draft which was intended to be used.
6) She read the draft as best as she could and was then asked by the rep if she would agree to it.
7) She stated she would need some time to consider it.
8) The Suwa rep departed taking the hard copy of the draft with them.
9) At some later time (undetermined/ not remembered if it was the next day or in the next few days) the SUWA rep telephoned and asked if she would support the idea.
10) Her reply was that generally speaking, the content of the petition as she understood it seemed to *seem* OK.
11) I now assume that by that telephone conversation, the rep then placed her seal of approval on the potential petition.
12) End of story; but not entirely:

Below is my view of the method and means of how Suwa goes about presenting their case or agenda:

1) The wording utilized by their Grassroots organizers is often misleading and focuses on a 'begging the question' methodology.
2) The order in which the issues presented in the actual petition are placed in a deliberately haphazard manner.
3) The exact wording used for the road/trail/highway/ portion of the petition has been constructed to be completely confusing and deliberately misleading to the casual reader.
4) A cursory examination of the document would not necessarily make these obfuscated catch-phrase ideas eminently clear to any but the more knowlegable of readers or those who've had repeated encounters with Suwa or similar organizations such as Utah Wilderness Coalition or Sierra Club, and the methods they employ.
5) On the 'positive' note (imo), given the alternative of *some* activities which seem to be on the increase - read free now, not worth a plug nickel tomorrow - one might favor some protection for any number of places which if left unmonitored or unregulated will either end up closed altogether or not worth visiting any more than a trip to a war zone or an arena in which a demolition derby had been held. I myself can see how that might be *one* instance where the petition could possibly have some merit. Regardless, I had touched upon this issue in some small degree in the now vanished thread.

At any rate, it is not easy for me to state that while I have had a great deal of experience with Suwa and such organizations, apparently my wife has not. However, she deeply regrets that she had obviously been fooled by the ways and means employed to garner her 'support'. It should be known that when the exact details of such were made clear to her, she was highly upset, and presently remains so. I suspect and would expect that this will not be of any interest to any readers though. Unfortunately, it will also probably not matter to any of you at this time that now that this agenda has been clearly laid out and she has seen how she was misled and mistaken and would not support such a petition which was written in broad strokes - especially with the 'hidden' grey areas - that she has no intent, nor has any intention to support it.

I might as well go the 'extra mile' at this point to add the following factual exchange which had subsequently transpired: When confronting the SUWA representative, my wife expressed how she was flim-flammed (my words) into a pseudo agreement with this cagily worded petition, and now had the feeling of being in the wrong place; under the wrong side of things. Had made things bad for both myself, the RR4W, and our personal friends who share our similar interests. The representative immediately countered with the following which I will attempt to quote verbatim. He stated thus: "Don't worry.... for each persons business you will lose from there, you'll get two from our side". That is not, nor is it now the point or what her (or my) feelings are about.
First of all, *If* the Representative were truly an actual believer in what they were presenting, they should probably have said something to the effect of 'Listen; in the long run and big picture you are doing something noble and in the long term it will be a benefit of immense value. You might not fully understand it or agree with it now, but believe me when I tell you that time will show you that this is true and totally worthwhile'. But no; that's not what happened... this person looked at this as strictly a matter of finances and monetary value.

End page 1 -
Page 2 continues next post.
 

Capt. Picky

quite
Location
Moab, UT.
page 2 - previous post continued -

Taking this one degree further in the realm of actual facts, but relating to this monetary angle. Our business is a general business (gift shop) and not one which unfortunately for us has ever had an special appeal to the 4 wheeling community. We have never actually made any financial gain of any note during the RR4W Moab Easter Jeep Safari or the RR4W Labor Day Campout events. This has always been the case ever since we opened our shop in 1993. Even having been a RR4W club officer in any one of the three positions I've held over the years had no special effect (which is actually right and proper in my opinion) or made any change as far as the business which we do during any event held by RR4W. That even goes beyond any event RR4W presents to include whatever number of individual 4 wheelers whether alone or in some group; semi-organized or not. The fact is that we don't market Parts,Tires, T-Shirts, Spare Ribs, Beer, Gasoline, Motel Rooms, Groceries, Towing services, or Vehicle Repairs. Therefore as a general rule, Four wheelers have not ever been a bread-and-butter big ticket group for us. Perhaps I might wish for that to be different than it is, but the fact remains that it is just as I've stated.

At any rate, I can still truly and honestly say that we had no intent, nor have any intention of being a supporter of the SUWA petition as was made in such sweeping and dicey worded scope. I might add that the actual petition does not in any way focus on anti-access, and nowhere in that document which I have now read at least 20 times do I see it state that. I won't venture into what it does state (to me) at this point in time however.

In conclusion, and to re-cap on some points from my previous, now regrettably gone posts to this forum:
1) I am a current and active member of RR4W inc.since approximately 1990.
2) Held three officer positions in RR4W:
Land-Use officer - 1993/94
Vice president - 1999/2000
President - 2000/2001
3) RR4W of the year - 2002
4) Have led/ mid-gunned / and tail-gunned trails for RR4W since appx. 1990 or 1991.
5) Have been a EJS "Big Saturday" and LDC trail leader since 1985.
6) Obtained a matching funds grant from the State of Utah - Dept. of Parks and Recreation for the purpose of marking our trails.
7) Worked in conjunction with USA-All and Utah Congress to have the Tire Size restrictions amended allowing larger tires.
8) Had near single handedly first painted and marked the fins and things trail which took me 9 days to accomplish the ~ 14 miles of trail.
(assistance to that initial trail marking was limited to 1/2 day help from one member of Americorps (who also created the now well known Stegosaurus Stencil) and one fellow RR4W member (Marty Avalos - who is also a member of this forum) who assisted me for one day.
9) Had personally cleared of boulders deliberately placed by a BLM volunteer blocking a challanging section of Fins and Things trail (with BLM approval)
10) Have personally volunteered - for no salary - and was approved by BLM to replace missing/vandalized/stolen trail signs at major junctions of many trails and roads throughout Grand county.
11) Have participated with the spearheading member (Ber Knight) of RR4W, GPS'ing and documenting 4-WD trails for the benefit of RR4W as well as Grand and San Juan counties and the BLM, and all users since 1993. Have spent ~ 3 years of my own time GPS'ing any and all trails (yes, even the so-called 'phantom roads' - there's no such thing as a phantom road/trail to my well trained eye BTW) in Grand, San Juan, Emery, and Wayne counties, Utah. As well as some areas of extreme western Colorado in the vicinity of McIntyre Canyon and surrounding areas.
12) Have participated in several Local Moab area official Search and Rescue operations.
13) Have led Trails for Jeep Jamboree - Moab for two or three years.
14) Have worked for a 4-WD tour company stationed in Moab for two or three years.
15) Have both guided and rescued individual jeepers, bikers, ATV'ers (and on one occasion a well known motorcyclist who shall remain un-named to protect the innocent. :-D ) for *zero* dollars and the sheer fun and joy of sharing and helping.

Finally - last but not least - I own four 4-WD and 6-WD rigs as well as one 4-WD ATV.
1974 Pinzgauer 710M 4x4
1973 Pinzgauer 712 M 6x6
1981 Jeep CJ-7
1984 Jeep Cherokee
1987 Honda Foreman 4x4
Additionally, I have at my disposal with the complete freedom to use and operate 24/7 nearly 365, one 2000 Jeep TJ shod with 37" Pro-Comps/ 61/2' Rubicon lift/ locked F&R/ 4.0:1 TC /4.56:1, blah-blah which hardly makes a decent daily driver, and one extra Pinzgauer 6x6 (which also makes a crummy daily driver). :-D

Thus, in light of all of that, it would be most unlikely for myself to support *any* SUWA (or any other) Anti-Access - or whatever one would choose to name it - petition.

Regards,
Capt. Picky
 

Capt. Picky

quite
Location
Moab, UT.
To Greg RE: your question of deleted posts

Hi Greg and Supergper,

Yes Greg, I would like and appreciate if I could get a copy of the deleted posts or if SRN would agree to have the thread/posts restored with the Forum - minus the 'blacklist element - if that's what you as Admin (or any other Admin.) would prefer. It is my humble opinion that there was a good amount of useful and beneficial content/info in a number of posts of that thread.

If you can find it within your ability and desires to do so, I'd be most grateful.

Thanks and kind regards, ;-)
Capt. Picky
 
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Houndoc

Registered User
Location
Grantsville
I have a question to the bussinesses that where unfairly roped into supporting an add they do not support- what (publically) are they going to do about it?

Like it or not, SUWA got what they wanted- the idea to people in SLC that Moab bussinesses support the actions of SUWA.

I beleive the record needs to be set straight. How? I am not sure, but it needs to go beyond the pages of 4X4 forums.
 

roktaxi

Locked Up = More Freedom
I wish I knew for certain that EVERYONE that “endorsed” the ad knew the evil intent of SUWA. If these businesses that condoned such an advertisement (“open letter”) were aware of SUWA’s history of misguided and devious tactics, they should have known that this is a typical wolf in sheep’s clothing ploy. How about a nice piece of candy little girl? I’m convinced that some of the business listed are not aware of the harm that has been done and are not familiar with these underhanded techniques that SUWA uses. SUWA has thousands (if not millions) of lemmings. This is just another feather in their cap and will flaunt this for many days / weeks / months to come. The only recourse we now have is to communicate with everyone on the list and publish their response so all can clearly see how they stand. There will be those that will play both sides of the fence like the response of Eddie McStiff. At that point we must draw our own (individual) conclusion as to patronize their business or not. Others, like MOABILLIA were clearly duped. USA-ALL should “run herd” on verification of the various vendor responses so there is no question that responses come from a reliable source. Credibility is very important at this time. More harm could be done by false accusations and would only add gasoline to the fire. Mike, could you act as a “clearing house” for this information?
 

Poomba

Registered User
Location
Dugway, Utah
Since I don't scan this board very often, can someone give me a head's up on what business Capt Picky owns? One of our guys, over at Naxja, pointed out that not all the businesses truly supported the advert, and I'm willing to cut those businesses some slack. In order to be as fair as I can, with a boiling blood temp right now, I'm here doing research. However, I DO consider the list a black list.
Emails have already gone out to the businesses that I have personally spent money in. SUWA can kiss my tire carrier for perverting the public lands use issue as they continue to do. We'll (Intermountain Chapter of NAXJA) be in Moab in 3 weeks, as a group. all year as individuals. If my temper has..again...gotten ahead of me, then let me know the people who are our friends, and I'll make a point to swing business their way. The others can starve for all I give a damn. Sorry, but it rankles, to put on a uniform and serve the public every bloody day, and have SUWA decide I'm not a citizen if I own a jeep.
keljon@cut.net is the email I can be reached at, thank you for your time.
 

Capt. Picky

quite
Location
Moab, UT.
Poomba -

The name of our business is MOABILIA - 77 North Main St. in Moab. This was initially made clear in an earlier thread which was yanked by the OP Stephen Nielsen, and then reinstated once again (actually twice...) see here:
http://www.rockymountainextreme.com/showthread.php?t=19793

My wordy posts abound in various locations throughout this RME forum as well as in Pirate4x4, Tacomaterritory.com, Broncoholics, and have been copy/pasted by others in Jeepaholics (and lord knows where else). Some of the copy/paste posts submitted by others have yet to have been corrected, but have sometimes been addressed in some manner by forum members who do personally know me.
http://www.jeepaholics.com/support/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=38600

Regards,
Capt. Picky
 

outtahere

Registered User
Good writing on land use ethics, Capt. Picky. If only we had more like you. In fact, you sound a lot like SUWA.

I only take issue with this part:

Capt. Picky: "First of all, *If* the Representative were truly an actual believer in what they were presenting, they should probably have said something to the effect of 'Listen; in the long run and big picture you are doing something noble and in the long term it will be a benefit of immense value. You might not fully understand it or agree with it now, but believe me when I tell you that time will show you that this is true and totally worthwhile'. But no; that's not what happened... this person looked at this as strictly a matter of finances and monetary value."

And yet, here are just a few of the statements made by Mike Swenson of USA-ALL on the main Moab Blacklist thread:
________
'Again even if some of these businesses don’t support the enviro agenda, calling them will let them know, “what side their bread is buttered on”. They will be more cautious next time someone comes in with flowery talk about protecting “Wild Places."'



"Lets send a message to those who oppose motorized access or are in favor of SUWAs "balanced approach". It's time to turn up the heat!"


"We cant duck this situation, nor should we. Our community needs to bond together and start hitting were it hurts...the pocket book."

"If there was ever a doubt to these businesses what side their bread is buttered on there wont be after this."
 

Capt. Picky

quite
Location
Moab, UT.
Greetings outtahere, and all other forum readers and members -

This will be yet another one of my "too long posts...", therefore I must submit it in two sections. There are too many 'characters' beyond the limit, just as there are so many "characters out there'. :-D

outtahere said:
Good writing on land use ethics, Capt. Picky. If only we had more like you. In fact, you sound a lot like SUWA.
If I were to be a defensive sort of fellow, I might take offense to the latter sentence of the above quoted statement, however, I'm not. In fact, I take firm pride in the care I have for the beauty which attracts my attention (still - 26 years after first setting eyes upon it), and my reasons for trying to 'promote' an understanding of that beauty. SUWA is a relative latecomer when placed next to my yardstick. They are reacting to things after the fact; I am trying to address these issues from where they originate.
I only take issue with this part:

Capt. Picky: "First of all, *If* the Representative were truly an actual believer in what they were presenting, they should probably have said something to the effect of 'Listen; in the long run and big picture you are doing something noble and in the long term it will be a benefit of immense value. You might not fully understand it or agree with it now, but believe me when I tell you that time will show you that this is true and totally worthwhile'. But no; that's not what happened... this person looked at this as strictly a matter of finances and monetary value."
I still stand firmly behind this statement - quoted above - which I made. To elucidate: *I don't want outside intervention or regulation*. I would hope and wish for people to conduct themselves with discretion and care when 4-wheeling and not regard every area as one giant sandbox (which it will become if every bit of vegetation is destroyed). It will achieve 100% entropy as all will then be the same. <-- an obtuse abstraction. But it would hardly be interesting to me to be in an environment of all sand and dirt, tire tracks, and black rubber marks on every prominence which might remain jutting up off of the otherwise featureless and beautyless place.

In my final analysis of this, what use is freedom in H***? What use would it be to spend my time and $$ four wheeling around in a place where it is *ugly*? Why should I live here to find that every place looks as featureless as New Jersey (not wishing to imply that anything is actually wrong with N.J.; just saying it lacks the wonderful landform expression that might be *TAKEN FOR GRANTED* and abused here in Moab) or some demolition derby arena?

Fact of the matter is that it's unrealistic to expect proper 'behavior' from 100% of the (our) fellow outdoor enthusiasts, or to expect all to see and agree on the ways and means of personal enjoyment. In light of that, it is not unrealistic to see that in the not too distant future, that the Administering agencies will eventually curtail or outright close areas. It matters not that Sierra Club or SUWA will prompt them for such actions. These agencies do not operate under the aegis of these private organizations, and may by any number of means implement them. Although BLM is supposed to be guided under the hand of public input, there have been a few instances where such actions were done w/o public input/open house, etc.

Short version (haha) is: If we can't regulate and care for things ourselves, someone will be all too willing to do that for us. You've heard of 'play nicely, or don't play at all' ? I've already witnessed such actions done. Prompted *not* by SUWA or anyone else, but simply by the County or Regional BLM office to address the *carnage* created by spring breakers that came to the Moab Easter Jeep Safari and ran roughshod over the Sandflats area back in 1993 (IIRC). Since that 'wonderful' time and the 'wonderful' mess they created (I was there. I saw it with my own eyes. This is not heresay) the way Sandflats has been managed has taken on a whole new complexion.
And guess what? Despite having to now pay to enter there; to have to had mark the trail (which BLM first requested that we should not mark), despite admonishments and requests to not run that trail unless one *absolutely* knew the route, or had guidance by one who did know it; to now have the area restricted to *designated trails and routes*, the place is still being messed up, and as I've said earlier, we must now literally as well as figuratively *pay* for that privilege. The above problem is no longer limited to Sandflats area, and has spread to virtually all other areas of widespread use (more specifically, abuse)

That same thing can and *will* happen on a far larger scale if we don't learn what price is to be paid by all from the actions of the few. Furthermore, I am *hoping* it IS from the FEW, and NOT from the MANY. I mean, that if the general overall complexion has become one of *EXTREME THIS and EXTREME THAT*, with but a handful of 4-wheelers who use the activity to explore and enjoy the land, recognizing it's innate beauty and value, VERSUS simply enjoying the USE of their VEHICLES as the *be all end all*, then it's *all over*. Please try and realize that this is not some dirt/wooded area with no "interface" of variety and lacking outstanding expressions of the landform (i.e. - *scenery*). Isn't this why we choose to come here and live here? If you want to just drive on dirt and plants and rock, aren't there many other places in which one could do that? While on this subject, I am left totally amazed at the sheer number of tracks I see adjacent to a slab of slickrock/slabrock which go some undefined distance through scruboak and blackbrush to then re-emerge back onto the well marked slickrock. I'm talking Fins and Things in this instance. The trail is profusely marked at this one section I'm referring to to the point of absurdity. I have personally painted the Stegosaur stencil trail marking every vehicle length, It was hardly necessary - or so it seemed - it was matked and the only obvious route. BUT, for some reason, there were those who wanted to drive in the adjacent dirt despite the obvious location of the trail. Well, I'm compelled to ask a number of things here, but will limit it to one, and one only. Why would someone deliberately drive on dirt and run over plants where they had never been driven on before, when one has the nearly *unique* ability to drive on slickrock (and leave no trace to boot)? Where else in the world can one do that? New Jersey maybe? Furthermore, in time it had been repeated by untold numbers of drivers as the dirt 'trail' grew in length, depth and breadth. We added more stencil marks; we blocked the dirt trail - *countless* times. Guess what? That didn't work either. :-\

Now, back to where I was before I digressed into *fact*:
*Extreme* whatever it is (extreme book reading/ extreme shopping/ extreme hang-gliding / extreme first-dating) will be answered with *extreme solutions*. Why should these entities and Adminstering agencies not match 'fire with fire'? What I am asking here is this: If everything has become "extreme", why should they be an exception? I don't like it, and I am not saying I'm in favor of it (by any stretch of the imagination), but I am a realist. I've been around the block a couple of times.

In the long distant past generally "all was permitted except that which was forbidden". (Cultural taboos and laws). Then it became - or is becoming - "All is forbidden except that which is permitted". The next step which naturally follows is "All is forbidden except that which is compulsory". If things get this far, it is simply due to people trying to 'get away with' everything which they feel they can get away with before there are any laws enacted. Even after laws are enacted, the ones who pay are the reasonable person. The unreasonable still act..... unreasonable. Remember if you will, that murder, hate crimes, incest, vandalism, theft, and all others are laws on the books. People still do them. They actually have not stemmed the tide. (maybe they have to some degree... I've not done a scientific poll or study) What I'm getting at here, is that people who have acted and carried themselves in a responsible manner are the ones who get shut out, must pay for, and lose their freedom and privileges. The others just do the same thing in some other way elsewhere or in some other field of endeavor. Surely you've heard of instances where some CEO or other shyster has done that which was *morally wrong*, but was not prevented from doing so because there was no law on the books to prevent them? Try to pause and examine this entire issue in a similar light, and you will see why we will have bigger problems if we don't police ourselves. Some one will do it for us, AND you will have to pay them (as a taxpayer) for that 'privilege'. This is not my idea of a good time or money well spent, when there may be less 'costly' ways of dealing with it. I could well expand on this but will not bore and belabor you all with what I have learned and observed as I've lived.

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Capt. Picky

quite
Location
Moab, UT.
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And yet, here are just a few of the statements made by Mike Swenson of USA-ALL on the main Moab Blacklist thread:
________
'Again even if some of these businesses don’t support the enviro agenda, calling them will let them know, “what side their bread is buttered on”. They will be more cautious next time someone comes in with flowery talk about protecting “Wild Places."'

"Lets send a message to those who oppose motorized access or are in favor of SUWAs "balanced approach". It's time to turn up the heat!"

"We cant duck this situation, nor should we. Our community needs to bond together and start hitting were it hurts...the pocket book."
"If there was ever a doubt to these businesses what side their bread is buttered on there wont be after this."
That is your right and privilege to do so if you care to. I have already addressed how my own personal business is not one which four-wheelers regularly patronize, as what we offer is not on the four-wheelers main interest /need list. Again, it is not my desire or intention to alienate or *invite* any one group, but to leave that to the discretion of the *individual* to make up their own mind based upon their desire and will.

In conclusion I can only say that I would hope that reason and wisdom (in the big picture) would truly prevail. My expectations however are quite low regarding such, and in fact I have my doubts about the final outcome being one of which will be of any good.

The subject is quite complex....I've spent more than 12 years dealing with it on a first hand basis and adversaries are rampant.

Finally, I would have hoped to be able to compose and post a "pro-active" (I abhor such catch-phrases, but....) post suggesting what my opinion of really positive first hand ways of dealing with the *actual issue and problem*, but it would seem I'm always having to address a post in a 'reactionary after-the-fact' way. So now it has digressed to becoming a 'pocketbook' issue.

It is said that of all species on the planet, mankind is the only one which would deliberately sully and despoil the drinking water of it's enemies as a way to combat them. Other species apparently just carry the battle no further than to directly fight their perceived opponent, and do not despoil the support system of the entire species as a whole.

Again, for what it's worth (or worth-less), simply my 2 ¢.

With a mild degree of trepidation I hereby <click> submit this post.

Respectfully,
Capt. Picky
 
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