Why does my steering suck?

[RockMonkey]

I have a Saginaw power steering pump, a Toyota FJ (60?) power steering box, and a RockLogic 8" ram. The system is filled with Dexron ATF. I accidentally filled it with type ATF type F initially (I don't know if this could still be the source of my problems, or not). Since then I completely drained the system, and refilled it with Dexron. Then I drained it and replaced the pump, and refilled again with Dexron. Then I replaced the pump AGAIN, and refilled with Dexron. The pressure port on the pump was drilled out to 3/16."

My steering is really hard. It almost feels like there is no hydraulic assist. At this point it really can't be the pump, as I've had the exact same results with 3 different pumps. So, why does my steering suck? Do I need to use power steering fluid? Everyone seems to agree that ATF works just as well. Do FJ (60, I think) boxes suck? I did get the box from Olly... Something wrong with the ram? Did I screw up the box and/or ram by putting type F in it? Do I need to rebuild one or both now?

 

[Hickey]

Block off the ram and see if it is much worse. If that's not it, hook the ram back up and unhook the steering box from the linkage. (The ram should be able to turn the axle without the linkage to the box hooked up.

That may not solve anything, but it will help you narrow it down...

 

[RockMonkey]

Block off the ram and see if it is much worse. If that's not it, hook the ram back up and unhook the steering box from the linkage. (The ram should be able to turn the axle without the linkage to the box hooked up.

That may not solve anything, but it will help you narrow it down...

Good ideas. But there's no way to isolate the ram from the box, really. Let's say I disconnect the drag link, and turn the wheel, and nothing happens. What does that tell me? It still could be the pump (no pressure from the pump and nothing happens), the box (bad seals in the box could not send the proper pressure to the ram), or the ram (a bad internal seal would allow fluid to pass from one port to the other without moving the piston), or the fluid (ATF may suck in some of my components for some reason). Am I wrong? I'm still intrigued by the test, although I don't know what I really could learn from it.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Good points Hickey...

I am not a huge fan of the FJ60 boxes, but they work... There is one on my blue 60, it turns the air-downed 35's just fine at an idle, it can be a bit lacking in the rocks (but nothing a ran shouldn't solve).

Note, this is all with a Toyota pump, which though reliable and stout (my Toyota plug), they do not "put out" like a good Saginaw. Thus, you should have plenty of pressure to run the two...

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Using two vise grips, clamp the ram hoses shut... this will eliminate the ram as the culprit. If you don't like the idea of clamping them, just pull the lines and install the plugs from RL4x4...

 

[RockMonkey]

Good points Hickey...

I am not a huge fan of the FJ60 boxes, but they work... There is one on my blue 60, it turns the air-downed 35's just fine at an idle, it can be a bit lacking in the rocks (but nothing a ran shouldn't solve).

Note, this is all with a Toyota pump, which though reliable and stout (my Toyota plug), they do not "put out" like a good Saginaw. Thus, you should have plenty of pressure to run the two...

I was hoping you'd find your way in here. What don't you like about FJ60 boxes? I used that because of the ease of mounting on a flat frame, and because they turn backwards (which I needed to fit the box into the cramped space on the front of my buggy). Did I make a mistake? Does it need to be rebuilt? It did once belong to Olly.

 

[RockMonkey]

Using two vise grips, clamp the ram hoses shut... this will eliminate the ram as the culprit. If you don't like the idea of clamping them, just pull the lines and install the plugs from RL4x4...

How? Is there any possible way the ram can fail (aside from me hooking it up backwards) that would cause it to turn easier without it? I still wouldn't know if the underlying problem is in the ram, the box, or the pump, would I?

 

[Hickey]

There are a few Sag apps that turn backwards that are easy to come by, but that means changing a lot of stuff for you. 88 and newer ford F150-350 is probably the most plentiful.

 

[Hickey]

How? Is there any possible way the ram can fail (aside from me hooking it up backwards) that would cause it to turn easier without it? I still wouldn't know if the underlying problem is in the ram, the box, or the pump, would I?

Maybe you are not pumping enough to power both the ram and the box.

 

[Meat_]

... hook the ram back up and unhook the steering box from the linkage. (The ram should be able to turn the axle without the linkage to the box hooked up.

That may not solve anything, but it will help you narrow it down...

When I ripped my box off my frame I tried taking off my drag link and driving with just the ram, it did not turn at all.....

 

[RockMonkey]

When I ripped my box off my frame I tried taking off my drag link and driving with just the ram, it did not turn at all.....

Even after you turned the box all the way to lock? It should have.

 

[Meat_]

Even after you turned the box all the way to lock? It should have.

The ram would move a tiny bit each time I hit lock on the box.

Edit: by tiny bit I'm talking maybe 1/8 of an inch

I'm pretty sure my pump isn't putting out at an idle (figured that out days later) and I can't remember if I tried giving it any r's

 

[cruiseroutfit]

I was hoping you'd find your way in here. What don't you like about

Its not that I don't like them, its that I have heard others fight similar problems on Cruisers (originally equipped with the box) and larger tires (usually 37's and up)... but in all the cases where a ram has been added, they are more than satisfied.

Have you done any pump mods? When I drilled out the orfice and stretched the spring, it was like night and day (before I put the ram on). I really don't notice the ram's additional help unless I am in the rocks with my front locker on... other than that it is just playing catchup...

Its fair to assume that your box may be in need of a rebuild... Olly has put that thing to hell and back (a couple times). Seems that there are quite a few of them on buggies & such... I get a couple calls a month for them... all guys building rigs that like the way they mount.

How hard is your pump to swap? I would start with the easiest one to remove...

 

[camicaztoy]

i don't mean to bring up the dumb stuff, but have you verified that the ram is pushing the correct direction. if the ram and box are fighting each other it will never feel right. the box and pump usually have enough power to overcome the ram.

 

[RockMonkey]

Its not that I don't like them, its that I have heard others fight similar problems on Cruisers (originally equipped with the box) and larger tires (usually 37's and up)... but in all the cases where a ram has been added, they are more than satisfied.

Have you done any pump mods? When I drilled out the orfice and stretched the spring, it was like night and day (before I put the ram on). I really don't notice the ram's additional help unless I am in the rocks with my front locker on... other than that it is just playing catchup...

Its fair to assume that your box may be in need of a rebuild... Olly has put that thing to hell and back (a couple times). Seems that there are quite a few of them on buggies & such... I get a couple calls a month for them... all guys building rigs that like the way they mount.

How hard is your pump to swap? I would start with the easiest one to remove...

Yes, I've drilled out the pump. Just like I drilled it out before, and it worked great. Ick, I really don't want to rebuild the box. Where's the best place to get a rebuild kit? Do you have the diagram for the box? I think I'm gonna start by ripping apart the ram, cuz it's waaaaay easier to do, then move on to the box. Is everyone running Dexron ATF in their steering system successfully?

 

[RockMonkey]

i don't mean to bring up the dumb stuff, but have you verified that the ram is pushing the correct direction. if the ram and box are fighting each other it will never feel right. the box and pump usually have enough power to overcome the ram.

Thanks for thinking of anything else it could be. Yeah, the ram is installed right. I know exactly what it feels like when you hook up the hoses wrong. It's hooked up right, just doesn't work very well.

 

[Meat_]

Where are you getting the new pumps?

 

[RockMonkey]

Where are you getting the new pumps?

They're Autozone remanufactured pumps. With three different pumps and no change in the symptom I really can't imagine the problem lies with the pump. It has to be in the box or the ram.

 

[fergusor]

Im running the same set up as you and havent had any problems. sounds like the problem we had last year. I need to rebuild my box soon

 

[Kiel]

I have the same pump and box in my zuk, that you probably saw at RL when your buggy was getting built I think, saginaw pump and fj60 box, I don't have a ram or anything, but I really don't have any problems turning w my unassisted setup.