14 bolt disc swap w/ parking brake (non eldo)

[mbryson]

I have the TSM 3120 calipers on my Blazer and they hold it fine, havent had a problem yet. But I also use it everytime I put it in park.

Also over on CK5 there was someone talking a bout a mechanincal caliper that TSM was designing to use with a dual caliper bracket that has the same bolt spacing as the GM caliper. Here's the page. http://coloradok5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=288326&highlight=disc+brake Looks like it will be a pretty good setup when they get done with it.

And I have also seen an adapter from a company called RightGear that allows use of the newer GM disc brake setup on an older 14 bolt.

There's some good tech on that site. Annoying that you have to pay to see pictures, though.

 

[thenag]

Both my Dodge (2004) and my Super Duty (1999) had park brakes and rear disk. I'm SURE those work better than the craptastic Caddy caliper. I would think a GM setup from a later model 14 bolt would work with the older 14 bolts (and likely as well as the two other trucks?), but if the rear axle is the same in the newer rigs (swappable carrier, gears, etc.) as it is in the "traditional" drum brake 10.5" 14 bolt, why not just save the fab and swap your locker/gears into the disc brake GM axle?

Yeah that is my point, my 2000 f250 has a drum in hat setup, I am guessing that the drum in hat setup requires more time and money to build and install from a production stand point than something like the caddy setup that is pure disk. So basically the engineers at the big 3 implemented a more complicated parking brake system because the caddy style just doesn't work well enough. It's tough to beat the engineers on something like this, if a pure disk brake worked well on heavy vehicles I think it would be in production.

From an off road stand point the drum in hat still kind of sucks, still have the issues with packing them with mud and having two sets of brakes on the rear axle. But they work pretty well.

I think I mentioned this in my previous post, my 14 bolt with caddy calipers holds my jeep as well as my stock drum in hat holds my f250, but on my f250 it is way out of adjustment and my jeep is adjusted perfectly.

I actually don't think drum brakes are that bad, I mean the 14 bolt stock disk brakes work really really well and the stock 14 bolt drum parking brake was the best parking brake I have ever used. I think if you really want a good parking brake with a 14 bolt your compromise might be to keep the drums. Or do like Chevycrew and use a newer axle that is disk from the factory with the drum in hat.

nathan

 

[Xiled1]

If you keep the stock disks from the newer 14 bolt, won't there be entirely too much stopping force applied to the rear axle. More than a proportioning valve could solve? Seems that a truck designed for hauling heavy loads would be overbraked for a jeep/toy/etc application. I would guess there would be a significant weight increase over the Eldorado setup as well.

Back to the Eldorado setup, how bad is it. Can it hold your jeep steady on a steep incline while out on the trail?

 

[mbryson]

If you keep the stock disks from the newer 14 bolt, won't there be entirely too much stopping force applied to the rear axle. More than a proportioning valve could solve? Seems that a truck designed for hauling heavy loads would be overbraked for a jeep/toy/etc application. I would guess there would be a significant weight increase over the Eldorado setup as well...

All the better to stop 37" or bigger tires.

 

[Chevycrew]

I love the way the rear discs work. The TB has a dana 60 with dual piston calipers up front, then the 14 bolt with dual piston calipers in the back. Im very happy with the front/rear brake bias even with the stock master and prop valve.

 

[thenag]

Back to the Eldorado setup, how bad is it. Can it hold your jeep steady on a steep incline while out on the trail?

I don't know that you can have too big of brakes on the axle, so long as you can put enough volume and pressure from the MC to use them.

My setup is a 99 xj with a 1996 ford d60 front dual piston, a 70's 14 bolt with the disks from a front gm d44 and the caddy calipers from tsm. Booster is stock 99 xj, removed the o-ring in the porp valve, and used a 1998 mc from a dodge 2500. when I slam on the brakes (like pavement at 35mph) the front and rear will lock up and the xj skids straight. so I believe brake performance is super. 37 inch mtrs I should mention.

For the parking brake I made custom cables used the stock ebrake handle. For a parking brake it works very well, it will hold the xj on a pretty good grade, it does not hold as well as my father in laws stock tj on 32's. It does not slow the xj down as an e-brake very well at all. It is comparable to the e-brake in my 2000 f250 (that is out of adjustment)

I will say it again if you want a killer parking brake run the 14 bolt stock drums, if you want a really good parking brake and disks, run the newer 14 bolt drum in hat setup, if you just need a parking brake to get through inspection get the tsm calipers.

nathan

 

[thenag]

If you keep the stock disks from the newer 14 bolt, won't there be entirely too much stopping force applied to the rear axle. More than a proportioning valve could solve? Seems that a truck designed for hauling heavy loads would be overbraked for a jeep/toy/etc application. I would guess there would be a significant weight increase over the Eldorado setup as well.

That is not entirely the correct way to think of it. more force doesn't really come from bigger caliper/pads/rotors. Search for billavista's brake tech on pirate. I have read it a few times and still don't quite understand everything. The force comes more from the relation of the bore and stroke of the MC (the booster factors into it too)

from a braking system standpoint the whole system has to match up pretty well. usually if you can run parts from a similar size vehicle you will be good.

Also we use our brakes unlike any other motor sport, especially you guys with autos, we need to be able to feather our brakes, then stop us twisted up on an obstacle, then go to full throttle then back on the brakes hard within moments of each other. An over sized over built brake system will simply last longer and perform better than smaller components.

so

this thread has gotten way off topic...

what was the original question...

nathan

 

[STAG]

The newer 14b axle parts don't interchange with the older 14b axles, and the newer 14b axles offer very little aftermarket support. ;if I understood your post correctly.

Both my Dodge (2004) and my Super Duty (1999) had park brakes and rear disk. I'm SURE those work better than the craptastic Caddy caliper. I would think a GM setup from a later model 14 bolt would work with the older 14 bolts (and likely as well as the two other trucks?), but if the rear axle is the same in the newer rigs (swappable carrier, gears, etc.) as it is in the "traditional" drum brake 10.5" 14 bolt, why not just save the fab and swap your locker/gears into the disc brake GM axle?

GM does still make a cab/chassis combo. I wonder what the late model axle hubs look like?

 

[Chevycrew]

The newer 14 bolts take the same guts as the olders, if you get the 10.5" version. So what is their no support for?

I even ditched the expensive triple lip hub seal in favor of the old style found on the 70s axles, perfect fit.

 

[Xiled1]

14B Brakes - I was more referring to trying to get front to rear brake bias setup correctly. The bore size of the master and stopping power is correct, but you also have to take into account the size of the piston(s). I'm thinking of an application that see's daily driver duties, emergency stop situations.

I was talking with someone who has one of the newer 14 bolts in their rig. Now there is probably multiple applications, but this was out of a Duramax. He found that the tubes were not as thick as the older 14 bolts. He also said that his is a full 69" width. As for putting the new brakes on the older axle, those brackets look to be pretty pricey.

I'd really like to know just how bad the Eldorado calipers are, as far as holding the your rig in place on a steep incline. The stock setup on my LJ can just barely hold the jeep on a steep obstacle, so my expectations would be to perform similarly. Right now the lowest price option is an inline, mechanical line lock on the rear brakes. I don't have to deal with the inspection here in AZ.

 

[Chevycrew]

The duramax has a 11.5" ring gear AAM axle, this is not just a new style 14 bolt, this is a whole new axle.

The new style 14 bolt is still a 10.5" ring gear, just with discs and 3 1/2" tubes. Mine all measure 68" wide.

 

[STAG]

Okay we're clear now, I was thinking you were referring to the 11.5" as the "new 14b"

 

[bryson]

The duramax has a 11.5" ring gear AAM axle, this is not just a new style 14 bolt, this is a whole new axle.

The new style 14 bolt is still a 10.5" ring gear, just with discs and 3 1/2" tubes. Mine all measure 68" wide.

Not all D-maxes do... My dad had a '01 D-max with the old school 10.5" 14b... I have also seen a few new body ('07+) with the 10.5" 14b. I do know there is an AAM 10.5" 14 bolt as well, but I assure you, they do still use the old GM corporate 14b axles here and there.

 

[thenag]

I'd really like to know just how bad the Eldorado calipers are, as far as holding the your rig in place on a steep incline. The stock setup on my LJ can just barely hold the jeep on a steep obstacle, so my expectations would be to perform similarly. Right now the lowest price option is an inline, mechanical line lock on the rear brakes. I don't have to deal with the inspection here in AZ.

Line locks would be sweet and should out preform pretty much any mechanical e-brake

nathan

 

[Johnny Quest]

Line locks would be sweet and should out preform pretty much any mechanical e-brake

nathan

"This line lock is not designed as a replacement for a vehicles emergency brake system."
even though its a mechanical line lock, its still relying on the hydraulic pressure to work

 

[kgb]

If it is a separate hydraulic system why would it not pass safety?

The one that Boondock5 aka Matt is building he is running a totally separate system with the parking brake lever attached to a master cylinder. Back to dual calipers on the real axle.

I always thought the emergency brake was there to stop you when you hydraulic system failed. Not sure how this wouldn't meet that code.

 

[kgb]

M. PARKING BRAKE
1. Check holding ability.
a. REJECT when:
1) Parking brake does not operate or fails to hold vehicle.
2. Check ratchet or the locking device.
a. REJECT when:
1) Ratchet, pawl or other locking device fails to hold brake in an
applied position.

Only thing I could find in the safety code

 

[thenag]

M. PARKING BRAKE
1. Check holding ability.
a. REJECT when:
1) Parking brake does not operate or fails to hold vehicle.
2. Check ratchet or the locking device.
a. REJECT when:
1) Ratchet, pawl or other locking device fails to hold brake in an
applied position.

Only thing I could find in the safety code

That would be cool, a separate hydro system for the e-brake, run some small calipers and have a small MC actuated by a stock hand lever.

(front digs would kick ass then...)

nathan

 

[STAG]

But all parts must be DOT approved

 

[STAG]

And all modifications must be as strong or stronger than factory, at the discrepancy of the inspector