9mm over .40 s&w for personal defense

thefirstzukman

Finding Utah
Supporting Member
Over the last 2 years I have made the switch over from 40 to 9mm on all my carry guns. This was a hard decision for me to make as I have over 20000 rounds of brass and thousands of rounds loaded ammo for practice. Over the years I have given all my 9mm brass to a friend swearing I would never carry a 9. Through my own training experiences I (with some help of a good friend) converted the Glocks and sold off others and now only have 1 40 s&w barrel for my 35 and still have all that ammo sitting in my gun room for friends to shoot. I came across this article that I found expressed the same thoughts I have had that I thought I would share.

http://www.imakenews.com/valhalla/e_article002168437.cfm?x=bk1b43S,bj7QPlVl,w

Not posting this for argument, I just thought it might be helpful for others maybe thinking about getting a new self defense tool.
 

jeeper

I live my life 1 dumpster at a time
Location
So Jo, Ut
I have always felt the same about my 9mm. I think having extra rounds is more effective than having a slightly stronger round.
My brother is a Concealed firearms instructor, so I get lots of fun or useless info.. One statistic he has shared with me shows that in the case a weapon is fired it is more likely that you will fire more than 1 round, or even empty your mag. So having the extra is better..
In talking bullet size, a 9mm is .358", and a .40 is obviously .40". We are talking a .042" difference. Shot placement is going to be much more important than size.
 

muleskinner

Well-Known Member
Location
Enoch, UT
I have always felt the same about my 9mm. I think having extra rounds is more effective than having a slightly stronger round.
My brother is a Concealed firearms instructor, so I get lots of fun or useless info.. One statistic he has shared with me shows that in the case a weapon is fired it is more likely that you will fire more than 1 round, or even empty your mag. So having the extra is better..
In talking bullet size, a 9mm is .358", and a .40 is obviously .40". We are talking a .042" difference. Shot placement is going to be much more important than size.

The .40 also has 144 more foot pounds of energy at 6';)

I'd carry whatever you shoot the best. I carry my little S&W Airlite .38 with a laser (and 5 rounds) more than my .45 (with 14 rounds) just because its easier to carry.

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Bucking Bronco

................
Location
Layton
Why does everyone who carries a 9mm always compare them to a .40 and vice versa?

Carry what your comfortable with, carry what you accurate with. Besides just carry a serbu shorty and be done with it.
 

thefirstzukman

Finding Utah
Supporting Member
Why does everyone who carries a 9mm always compare them to a .40 and vice versa?

Carry what your comfortable with, carry what you accurate with. Besides just carry a serbu shorty and be done with it.


Because we are Americans and at least as of right now we have the right to make a choice..... Every choice comes with debate, jeep or Toyota? Hummer or samurai? Ford or chevy? That's what makes us who we are.....:D

I shoot a lot, I shoot enough that I could be good with any gun I decide to carry.... I have lots of choices as to what to carry... With the new holsters out you can dang near carry anything you want. My choice to carry is a glock 17... Full size full capacity 9mm with trijicon sights, I can carry it in pants and with no problems.

You should carry what your proficient with. I agree to that but there are a lot of people that have a buddy tell them buy this, or that and never research stuff themselves. I'm just offering some food for thought....

If there is anyone out there contemplating buying a personal protection tool and needs more info or would like some help with making that choice, A friend of mine and I will be happy to take you to our range and let you shoot several different guns and give you a lot of info to help you along.
 

mr_blove

ask me if I care
Location
next door
I still prefer my Para Warthog, it's .45 and still has 10 round capacity in a compact frame and I am lethal with it at personal defense ranges.
 

muleskinner

Well-Known Member
Location
Enoch, UT
I guess you should ask yourself, would you rather be hit by 17 mimes riding unicycles or 14 F350's:D























































Just use what you shoot the best and carry the easiest:rolleyes: A lot of people are killed every year by one 22LR shot.
 

LT.

Well-Known Member
What are you more comfortable shooting? I have seen information about the two recently. In the reading there was something to the effect that a 9mm will stop 1/3 of would be assailants. The .40 cal would stop 2/3 of the would be assailants. But, what good is any of that if you cannot hit your target or you are not comfortable shooting it?

LT.
 

SAMI

Formerly Beardy McGee
Location
SLC, UT
This is from Frank Borelli's NEW AMERICAN TRUTH e-letter. The "voice/author" is Tom Perroni and I think he's an instructor at Blackwater aka the Knights who say XE!

When it comes to Handgun Stopping Power I have always taught my students that a Handgun is tool; a tool to fight your way back to the shotgun or long-gun you should have had if you knew you were going to be in a fight. The FBI has put together an article about Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness that is the basis for the vast majority of this article.

First let’s take a look at some statistics. The FBI, in the Uniform Crime Report (UCR), tells us that most shootings – about 80% – occur in low or reduced light. Most shootings involving police officers and civilian concealed carry permit holders happen at a distance of less than ten feet with average distance at three feet. In most police shooting the average number of rounds fired is ten. Keep in mind that most police agencies have a magazine capacity of 15 rounds. Of those ten rounds only two hit the subject that means an 80% miss rate. It is fair to say that most gun fights last about 10-15 seconds. And I would say as a general rule we know that action beats reaction.

When I teach on the subject of stopping power I teach about the “Anatomical Theory of Stopping Power” The theory that states there are only two places on the human body that you can shoot a subject and get immediate incapacitation:

1. The cranio-ocular cavity (about the size of a business card). This is the area on the head between the eyebrow line and the mustache line (Right between the eyes).

2. The Cervical Spine. From the base of the brain to the top of the collar bone (In the area of the Throat.)

Both of the above mentioned areas, when hit with a bullet, will shut down the central nervous system, thus incapacitating your attacker. There are also schools that teach the Pelvic Girdle shot. I am not a big proponent of this. When teaching I often ask my students “How many of you have seen a chicken get its head cut off?” “What happens once this happens?” The answer I most often get is it runs around for several minutes. My response is if a 10lb chicken can run around for several minutes without its head, what do you think a 200lb man bent on bringing the fight to you will be able to do with a small hole or two? (Adrenalin is a powerful drug) I often get asked, “Well, what if I shoot him directly in the heart?” The answer is: It will take about 15 seconds to bleed out. How much damage can the attacker inflict in that time?

This may often happen because most police academies and shooting schools teach to shoot to center mass (It’s a larger target area to place shots). When the day comes and you are in a gunfight and place your shots center mass and the attacker does not go down then panic can set in and the good guy keeps shooting center mass. More hits mean more blood loss, but it’s still a time consuming and time dependent process.

As a corollary tactical principle, no law enforcement officer should ever plan to meet an expected attack armed only with a handgun. Physiologically, no caliber of bullet is certain to incapacitate any individual unless the brain is hit. Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed “shock” of bullet impact is a fable and “knock down” power is a myth.

With the exceptions of hits to the brain or upper spinal cord, the concept of reliable and reproducible immediate incapacitation of the human target by gunshot wounds to the torso is a myth. (27) The human target is a complex and durable one. A wide variety of psychological, physical, and physiological factors exist, all of them pertinent to the probability of incapacitation. However, except for the location of the wound and the amount of tissue destroyed, none of the factors are within the control of the law enforcement officer.

Physiologically, a determined adversary can be stopped reliably and immediately only by a shot that disrupts the brain or upper spinal cord. Failing a hit to the central nervous system, massive bleeding from holes in the heart or major blood vessels of the torso causing circulatory collapse is the only other way to force incapacitation upon an adversary, and this takes time. For example, there is sufficient oxygen within the brain to support frill, voluntary action for 10-15 seconds after the heart has been destroyed. (28)

In fact, physiological factors may actually play a relatively minor role in achieving rapid incapacitation. Barring central nervous system hits, there is no physiological reason for an individual to be incapacitated by even a fatal wound, until blood loss is sufficient to drop blood pressure and/or the brain is deprived of oxygen. The effects of pain, which could contribute greatly to incapacitation, are commonly delayed in the aftermath of serious injury such as a gunshot wound.

The body engages survival patterns, the well known “fight or flight” syndrome. Pain is irrelevant to survival and is commonly suppressed until some time later. In order to be a factor, pain must first be perceived, and second must cause an emotional response. In many individuals, pain is ignored even when perceived, or the response is anger and increased resistance, not surrender.

Psychological factors are probably the most important relative to achieving rapid incapacitation from a gunshot wound to the torso. Awareness of the injury (often delayed by the suppression of pain); fear of injury, death, blood, or pain; intimidation by the weapon or the act of being shot; preconceived notions of what people do when they are shot; or the simple desire to quit can all lead to rapid incapacitation even from minor wounds. However, psychological factors are also the primary cause of incapacitation failures.

The individual may be unaware of the wound and thus has no stimuli to force a reaction. Strong will, survival instinct, or sheer emotion such as rage or hate can keep a grievously injured individual fighting, as is common on the battlefield and in the street. The effects of chemicals can be powerful stimuli preventing incapacitation. Adrenaline alone can be sufficient to keep a mortally wounded adversary functioning. Stimulants, anesthetics, pain killers, or tranquilizers can all prevent incapacitation by suppressing pain, awareness of the injury, or eliminating any concerns over the injury. Drugs such as cocaine, PCP, and heroin are disassociating in nature. One of their effects is that the individual “exists” outside of his body. He sees and experiences what happens to his body, but as an outside observer who can be unaffected by it yet continue to use the body as a tool for fighting or resisting.

When discussing Handgun caliber with my father, a Marine combat veteran and former police officer, he said this “A hit with a .25 caliber beats a miss with a .45 caliber every day of the week.” I often wondered why my father carried a .25 caliber semi auto for a Back Up Gun (BUG). His explanation was so simple it made perfect sense… at least to me. “If I am in a fight for my gun with a Bad Guy at this point by the way I am in a fight for my life – and for what ever reason I can’t use my primary handgun i.e.; out of ammunition, malfunction, or I am laying on top of it for weapons retention in a fight, I can pull that .25 caliber out of my pocket or vest carrier. And when I point it at the eye socket, nostril, opening of the ear canal, open mouth and pull the trigger the bullet will go in and not come out. End of fight.

So when we are in a gunfight it is not the size of the handgun or the size of the bullet. “It is knowing where to place hits that will stop the threat.”

And when I asked about why a 9mm he said it’s all about magazine capacity. A Glock 17 9mm can hold 20 rounds – 19 in the magazine (with a +2 floor plate) and one in the pipe. We all know the average number of rounds fired in a gunfight is 10 and that Law Enforcement has an 80% MISS rate meaning 2 in 10rounds hit the subject so, as my dad put it, I just doubled my odds in a gunfight if I can shoot to stop the threat at the Head & Spine. 20 rounds = 4 hits instead of 2.

However let’s not forget in order to prevail in a real world “Gun Fight” we need:
1. Combat Mindset
2. Tactics (use of cover & concealment & handgun presentation & Reloading)
3. Training ( Combat Marksmanship & Learn to Shoot, Move & Communicate)

“In a real world environment or at QCB distances of 3 feet or contact distance”

27 Wound Ballistic Workshop: “9mm vs. .45 Auto”, FBI Academy, Quantico, VA,
September 1987. Conclusion of the Workshop.

28 Wound Ballistic Workshop: “9mm vs. .45 Auto”, FBI Academy, Quantico, VA,
September 1987. Conclusion of the Workshop.

The information for this article came from: Special Agent UREY W. PATRICK
Firearms Training UMT FBI ACADEMY QUANTICO, Virginia July 14, 1989

Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness
Thomas A. Perroni Sr. & Frank Borelli also contributed to this article.
 

cowmilker

SUPER CHEESY
When it comes to Handgun Stopping Power I have always taught my students that a Handgun is tool; a tool to fight your way back to the shotgun or long-gun you should have had if you knew you were going to be in a fight.

When I was going through the SLCC academy back in '99, that was the response of one of our firearms instructors when asked about the best pistol caliber, "all these guns are good for is keeping bad guys heads down so you can get back to your car (assuming you are just on a traffic stop) to get the LONG GUN that you should have had in the first place".
 

TRD270

Emptying Pockets Again
Supporting Member
Location
SaSaSandy
Just beating the dead horse again, shoot what your comfortable with

I'm a huge fan of .45 ACP I love it, but due to its capacity I mostly use it for target shooting because it's a blast (no pun intended) to shoot.

For work I carry a Glock 22 .40 cal it has more capacity than the .45 and actually for situations that police run into has better ballistics than a .45 against unshattered windshields, doors, windows, anything with resistance tends to knock down the larger slower projectiles a little faster. Yeah it doesn't have the few more rounds of capacity that a Glock 17 may have but I have 61 on my person and another 90 pre-loaded in the trunk and a few boxes for the inevitable zombie apocalypse, that will hopefully buy me enough time to get me to my long gun :greg:

As far as conceal carry I still carry the .40 cal, I use a Glock 23 just because it's the round I train with and if my primary fails the full size mags will fit in the 23

I've been considering getting a glock 26 for off duty just to make it a little easier to carry around, I had a 27 for a while but I just didn't feel I could engage targets as well with the snappy .40 with that small of a gun so I sold it and i'm just using the 23 for now

9mm is a great round .40 is a great round it's all about how you shoot it. 5 well placed shots with a 9mm that you can control are better than 10 missed shots with a .40 cal you got because it was the bigger cooler round but you can't shoot it

Buy and carry what you are comfortable with, just remember shooting is a very perishable skill, go out and feed the beast monthly, practice those draw strokes and make sure you are comfortable shooting what ever you decide to carry because you can't stop that projectile once it leaves the barrel, and if you are missing, someones kid, mother, father what ever could be behind your target.

I'm also a firearms instructor so if anyone has questions about technique, needs help shooting, or just wants to go blast a few off at the range let me know :D
 

glockman

I hate Jeep trucks
Location
Pleasant Grove
I carry a Glock 27 because it is the best carry gun ever made. Just kidding. My dad has always said a 22 in your hand is better than a 45 in your safe. My 27 is very comfortable to carry so I carry it more than I did my 23. As mentioned above practice is the key. IDPA shoots are monthly in ut and sl county. They are a really good way to keep your skills tuned.
 

mesha

By endurance we conquer
Location
A.F.
What's IDPA ?

International defensive pistol association.
The matches are really freaking fun. You will use about 200 rounds, but get a lot of simulated practice. They are shooting matches aimed at scenarios that might happen in a defensive situation. Hiding behind doors, walking backwards, even laying down like you are getting out of a sleeping bag.
 

mbryson

.......a few dollars more
Supporting Member
International defensive pistol association.
The matches are really freaking fun. You will use about 200 rounds, but get a lot of simulated practice. They are shooting matches aimed at scenarios that might happen in a defensive situation. Hiding behind doors, walking backwards, even laying down like you are getting out of a sleeping bag.



Hrrrmmm...interesting. Googling for info
 

mbryson

.......a few dollars more
Supporting Member
Marc, I could swear we talked about IDPA a while ago. It's a good time. :D


We probably did, but with how many acronyms are in my day job, I don't take to well to other ones, I guess? Googling "IDPA" right now....


Edit:

There's a chapter at the Bountiful Lions club. I got an email from the administrator late last night re: registration for their events. I think I'll try it out.

The question is, range gun or carry gun? 6 vs. 15-16 shots
 
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