A Quick Poll

cruiseroutfit

Cruizah!
Moderator
Vendor
Location
Sandy, Ut
...Letters in general, even plan comment letters are an essential component to the battle. People need to write them, but they also need to understand there is so much more they can do. There are much better uses of valuable time and limited resources. To lay all or even most of our eggs in the “comment letter basket” would be a huge mistake. Your example illustrates this. There are much more effective things that can be done with our time and energy. However, you need to know the how, what, when, and where of these things. That is where groups like USA-ALL and BRC who are experts and experienced in these matters become so important...

Mike I would like to know about your seeming change of heart on this. When the RMP comment sessions were in full swing, I questioned the workings of Usa-All on the mailing list, specifically why Usa-All was working on lobbying up at the hill instead of any effort to get their members to comment on the six RMP's at the time. As I recall (and have the email) you said that comments havn't historically mattered that much and the work you were doing on the Hill was a higher priority. In fact you invited me "up to the Hill" to see what important work was taking place. As I recall the only RMP you guys even mailed about was the Moab RMP in which BRC's action alert was forwarded to your members? Though I also seem to recall you did help us broadcast our letter writing meetings via your email list too.

I have no doubt your work with legislators is important and a needed task, but your outlook on comments at the time seemed to ruffle feathers amongst usergroups, we had a longtime ATV advocate show up to our letter writing campaign, bent about the little activity Usa-All was portraying on the RMP's at the time. Did Usa-All submit comments on the 6 RMP's? Do you have copies of those available?
 
To most of your reply I say, "Right-on & good on you." But to the last comment...OUCH! I think you were saying USA-ALL et al are not actually working on these issues, which is simply not even close to true. I'll bet if you asked one of THE guru's for land use in our state, Commissioner Mark Habbeshaw, about USA-ALL and about me personally you will rethink this comment. Ask him about our role and work on issues with the legislature and if and how they affect what Kane County is doing for all of us. You will be surprised and happy to hear his answer. Then post it on here so others will know what was said.


This is a great chance for USA-ALL to promote itself to the hundreds of people who will view this thread. Tell us about USA-ALL's work on legislation and how that fits into what Kane County is doing. Give us the information that will attract members and solidify support for USA-ALL. It's worth a few minutes of time to spread the word among the 4x4 community.
 

utahmike

Lobbyist \ Consultant
I'll try to keep this concise. There is so much to explain I apologize. That’s why I like phone calls. It’s easier and i’m a lazy typist. I appreciate the chance to discuss.

To Kurt: Man on this particular subject I feel like I am arguing with my wife when you and I discuss it. I need to choose my words more carefully because the intent of what I am saying didn’t get through then and has yet to get through. I don’t remember the exact words I used in the email I am positive you could remind me…again, just like my wife;). Our position hasn't changed on letter writing. Our position was misunderstood when the aforementioned email went out. I do remember being particularly cynical about comment letters when I sent the email. We have always maintained they are an essential part of the process. A bit of a red herring but never the less essential. Simply put when Joe Public has limited time and resource and they ask me how they can the MOST effectively use their time; I am not going to say, "Write a comment letter." That isn't to say DON'T write one it just simply means that there are things folks can do to make a BIGGER difference in the process. I know this has been a sore spot with you and for that I am sorry. I don't say this or those things in the email (which is over a year old) disparagingly, I applaud your efforts to get letters written, and I am grateful that you and U4 stepped up when USA-ALL was struggling, that’s how it should work, we should have each other’s back, not undermining the other or competing against one another. I hope my point is made clearly. Here it is again: comment letters are good, comment letters are an important part of the process, but if you have limited time and resource and there is opportunity to spend your time and resource on more effective things you should go for the more effective choice IF you can’t do both. There are more effective things in influencing land management and protecting access than comment letters.

Will you please forgive us of any crime and help us move on?
 
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utahmike

Lobbyist \ Consultant
To Steve,

**A little disclaimer: Despite my "rah-rah USA-ALL" attitude, I know better than most the problems the organization had, has, and yet faces. Heaven knows I have my own weaknesses and problems. I know we have made mistakes, I know we could be better, some of our weaknesses can be fixed, some cannot without much more support from the public, we are working on improving and we have made progress**

This could take some typing...We have worked closely with Kane county on many different bills. The check off box for vehicle registration was my idea, and was pitched to Rep Mike Noel in Commissioner Habbeshaw’s office in the fall of 2005. Many bills have been bounced off of or came from those guys before we went public with them. We have worked most closely with Kane County on the ATV street legal bill, which has a HUGE impact on asserting RS 2477 claims, so even though it was an ATV bill it benefitted all. It will surely save us from having to litigate many routes that many of you will use. We couldn’t have got that type of protection of access if we filed many lawsuits and submitted millions of comment letters It was beautiful, we essentially saved the community hundreds of thousands of dollars in potential lawsuits and protected access and all it cost us was a few months of pay to me. On the street legal bill we worked specifically with Commissioner Habbeshaw, It was originally his idea and he provided the foundational language for that bill. Kane County and Mike Noel asked for our support and invovlment. We were given special unrestricted access to the bill and it's crafting and tweaking. We did a tremendous amount of research on surrounding states, we coordinated our work with state legislators and government officials in Arizona, we had an Arizona state senator ready to jump on a plane and come to SLC to testify on this bill since they passed a similar one many years ago. We tracked down the HEAD of the Wyoming Highway patrol who supported a similar bill in Wyoming and even helped write it. We did an incrediable amount of behind the scenes work. We also lobbied the bill to other groups as well as legislators. It was a massive and complex effort. It was impressive what little ‘ol USA-ALL accomplished. And believe me USA-ALL wasn’t just a part of that bill we were the central hub and driving force behind it. Kane County wanted the bill but lacked the resources to effectively lobby the bill. We were showered with appreciation from Kane County for filling the void. We couldn’t have done it alone but it would have been very difficult to do without us. SUWA had people on the hill and actively opposed the bill, we crushed them. They beat us in other arenas but Utah’s capital is our home field. The core group responsible for that bill includes very few individuals, (due to lurkers I won’t say who, but it included Mike Swenson and Mark Habbeshaw. Bottom line is this without Rep Mike Noel, Mark Habbeshaw, and Mike Swenson that bill, and other bills would not have been introduced let alone pass. I am not sure it would be a good idea to explain the legal thinking behind the ATV street legal bill, again due to lurkers, I know you may think that is convenient, but suffice it to say the bill gives the public additional access, additional loop opportunities, and it gives all counties an additional layer of legal protection because of the state definition of a street legal vehicle.

The level of cooperation between USA-ALL and the land use gurus of our state was extensive and it shows an important relationship between USA-ALL, Kane County and others. All those judging the legitimacy and effectiveness of USA-ALL should consider this cooperative relationship. I have talked with Commissioner Habbeshaw hundreds of times on the phone and in small meetings during the last 3 sessions, often we talk many times a day and coordinate our efforts. 2 sessions ago when the bill died due to lack of time I was at the capitol while Mark was on his home phone with me at midnight when the session ended. We both were very bummed. Mike Noel called me that same night\ morning at about 1:00 A.M as I drove home. We talked about the bill and how to pass it the next year, which we did. We communicate and work with these guys a lot. Consider last session when in a large press conference when Rep Noel was calling SUWA on the carpet. Rep Noel backed by 40-50 legislators asked me and my friend Rich(a USA-ALL board member) to speak for a minute to the press on behalf of the motorized community and disabled folks. He did this because he trusts us and USA-ALL is an important organization. I tell you these things to illustrate how tight I am with these guys. They wouldn’t have that type of relationship with me or USA-ALL if we weren’t a real and important player, if we weren’t effective in getting things done, and if they didn’t trust my judgment and knowledge.

USA-ALL hasn’t always had this relationship of trust with these guys. It has only come the past 3 or 4 years and it has been earned. That’s why it is maddening to me when people think we aren’t doing good things. Or they don’t trust us. If we were as bad as some folks suggest these 2 good men would not associate with us, they would find another organization to work with. USA-ALL's relationship with Kane County and the legislator from that county is extremely tight. For good reason. That relationship should lend us credibility among those who know what Kane County represents.

I don't know what more to say. People may think USA-ALL is good, bad, or ugly. But we have done some tremendous work for ALL of you, Kane County and Commissioner Mark Habbeshaw would unquestionably confirm this. If that is true then is USA-ALL the big phony, worthless organization that some folks think? If Commissioner Mark Habbeshaw and Representative Mike Noel both support USA-ALL (and they do big time) and endorse our efforts and others claim we are ineffective; who is right? Who has the more informed opinion? Who knows better what’s going on in the land use front than Mark H. and Mike N? Who knows better what USA-ALL is ACTUALLY doing? Why are we the “go to” organization for both of these guys when action is needed? Some questions for all to consider.

Bottom line is we must get beyond the problems of the past, USA-ALL is not going away, the speed by which we improve depends on all of you, if you withhold your support (not just monetary but verbal, and physical) to wait and see, that’s fine, I understand your hesitancy. But that support you are withholding is the capital we need to make the improvements you seek. I would suggest that rather than withhold support come and get involved with us, at the very least call me and express your concerns, you may find that we have made some good changes, more positive changes are in the works, and that we are genuinely a good organization that just wants to fight for you and others and enjoy public land.

For those on this forum who don’t know I’ll say this again, and I mean it. There is no more important type of access than a full size route. It allows for access to public land for the greatest number of people. Converting full size roads to ATV trails or single track trails is almost always a mistake. That being said all types of access must be preserved and even improved. We must ALL stick together on these issues. United we stand, divided we…
 
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cruiseroutfit

Cruizah!
Moderator
Vendor
Location
Sandy, Ut
...Will you please forgive us of any crime and help us move on?...

It was never a crime Mike, I was just interested to hear yours/Usa-All's stance on those. I hold no ill will, I know Usa-All was in some hard times during that period and I'm glad to hear things are on the up and up. :)
 

great scott

Well-Known Member
My 2 cents. I know USA-ALL has not been the most trusted aid to us in the 4X4 community. Then when and why is in the past to me. I can say that Mike is now one of my biggest allies. He has given ideas and support that I personally needed and need in the fight for the trails around Price. Even if we do not agree 100% with USA-ALL they are still an aid to us and we should support them.
 
To Steve,

See, wasn't that more time efficient than telling this story to 100 different people over the phone? And we know 100 people won't call, so you've just delivered your message to many more people than you would have otherwise.

There is no better investment in USA-ALL than to honestly and accurately document the work it does and provide that information to the masses. Yeah, yeah, some people won't read it. But you just had a one-to-many conversation with the people who did.
 

Tacoma

Et incurventur ante non
Location
far enough away
I've been pretty critical of USA-ALL in the past, mostly about the lack of involvement with the RMP's and the lack of direction that I saw... BUT!!! I've also held the opinion that IF and WHEN that got resolved, USA-ALL could and should be a great organization, and a real ally in the land-access struggle. It is my personal opinion that in serving as a clearing house for motorized land users, USA-ALL stands to gain the most members and therefore VOICE out of the myriad usergroups in UT.
So it's with a great deal of optimism that I welcome Mike's comments and presence here, and hope that any misgivings the 4wd community might have will be erased by continued good work on the part of USA-ALL.

And I second Steve's comments there-- the people that do read these posts are by and large the same people involved with all these groups we're discussing, so the influence one post can have is considerable here. :D


anyway. ;)
 

anderson750

I'm working on it Rose
Location
Price, Utah
I've been pretty critical of USA-ALL in the past, mostly about the lack of involvement with the RMP's and the lack of direction that I saw... BUT!!! I've also held the opinion that IF and WHEN that got resolved, USA-ALL could and should be a great organization, and a real ally in the land-access struggle. It is my personal opinion that in serving as a clearing house for motorized land users, USA-ALL stands to gain the most members and therefore VOICE out of the myriad usergroups in UT.
So it's with a great deal of optimism that I welcome Mike's comments and presence here, and hope that any misgivings the 4wd community might have will be erased by continued good work on the part of USA-ALL.

And I second Steve's comments there-- the people that do read these posts are by and large the same people involved with all these groups we're discussing, so the influence one post can have is considerable here. :D


anyway. ;)

For us to make great strides in land use in the future, we ABSOLUTELY need user groups to come under one umbrella. USA-ALL needs to be the organization that brings all the user groups together. Anything that happens to one group is going to have an impact on the others.

I know that USA-ALL has a lot of support from the motorcycle groups.....USRA and individual clubs, OHV groups, and hopefully they will gain the support of more of the full-size community.

I am confident that USA-ALL is back on track and heading in the right direction. As Scott had said in a previous post, he had been critical of USA-ALL but is convinced that Mike is here to help the full-size community.

I know this forum is a great way for Mike to get information out to a large group of people and I hope that communication line stays open and effective. However, I encourage everyone to take a minute and call Mike and talk to him one on one. After talking to him and asking a few questions, I clarified a few questions that I felt were better asked outside of a public forum. I also encourage people get involved directly with USA-ALL. Like any organization, they need help from people outside of who sits on their board of directors.
 
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