A win for SUWA???

moab_cj5

Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
Yikes! Hopefully the BLM can justify the routes they have open and keep the plan in place. It will definitely be something that needs to be watched.
 

jackjoh

Jack - KC6NAR
Supporting Member
Location
Riverton, UT
We need to have our voices heard loud and clear on this. What we do not have in money to buy lawyers we need to make up with individuals writing their concerns.
 

sixstringsteve

Well-Known Member
Location
UT
I would count it a win for SUWA and a loss for all of Utahns.

Reading the comments on the article gave me a glimpse of hope. 99:1 opposed to the one-sided "news" story, and in favor of public recreation in Utah.
 

clfrnacwby

Recovery Addict
Location
NV
...Reading the comments on the article gave me a glimpse of hope. 99:1 opposed to the one-sided "news" story, and in favor of public recreation in Utah.

This is what baffles me. How does one special interest group dictate land use when 99% of tax payers disagree?
 

sixstringsteve

Well-Known Member
Location
UT
because SUWA has the funds to take it to court, and the 99% of taxpayers don't donate to groups that fight SUWA.
 

ZUKEYPR

Registered User
"It was the first plan to get its day in court, where critics detailed that its 4,000 miles of off-road vehicle routes threatened prime landscapes such as Factory Butte, the Henry Mountains and Dirty Devil Canyon." In other words they have only just begun and now they have a court decision to refrence to base all other law suits against the RMP's. We could be seriously hosed here.
 

ZUKEYPR

Registered User
"Conservationists have challenged all six plans in court. The Richfield plan is the first of the six to be litigated. ". They get their ruling than lock it up until the studies have been done which more than likely will not happen for a long time if at all.
 

JL Rockies

Binders Fulla Expo
Location
Draper
Now that the Fed has decided the Fed can't manage the land properly and has ruled it shut down, how do you think SUWA will do with their other challenges? When do we abandon our "they do a better job than UT because the state will close it all down and sell out to oil" argument? When is it time to question the Fed's standing on this issue from the get-go?
Instead of pages of why I'm wrong in my Constitutional stand against Fed ownership of land, how about picking it up and having a read?

As I've stated multiple times: the Fed is in the land management business because the Fed says they're in the land management business.

Wake up; reject your programming and start asking the right questions. It's never wrong to stand up for The Constitution; even if the cool kids on RME make fun of you for doing so.




Kooler than Mudd.
 

cruiseroutfit

Cruizah!
Moderator
Vendor
Location
Sandy, Ut
Now that the Fed has decided the Fed can't manage the land properly and has ruled it shut down, how do you think SUWA will do with their other challenges?

Oh, you mean where Utah's own elected Mike Lee knowingly led the Fed into dormancy, fully knowing the implications i.e. federal land shutdowns. And the only land Utah re-opened is land they won't be getting back in the gimme proposal, they aren't even asking for it, National Parks are not included into the proposal ;) And what did 'that side' gain from forcing the shut down? Interestingly, the opposite side considers the shut down a closed case of why the fed should not hand off lands to Utah control: http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/opinion/57057099-82/utah-lands-parks-national.html.csp

Instead of pages of why I'm wrong in my Constitutional stand against Fed ownership of land, how about picking it up and having a read?

I've read the Utah constitution, you know one that states: "The people inhabiting this State do affirm and declare that they forever disclaim all right and title to the unappropriated public lands lying within the boundaries hereof, and to all lands lying within said limits owned or held by any Indian or Indian tribes, and that until the title thereto shall have been extinguished by the United States, the same shall be and remain subject to the disposition of the United States, and said Indian lands shall remain under the absolute jurisdiction and control of the Congress of the United States."

But humor me, give us some 'proof' from the US Constitution that the Utah Attorney General doesn't know about (he too said the gimme proposal was likely unconstitutional)

As I've stated multiple times: the Fed is in the land management business because the Fed says they're in the land management business.

And because the Utah constitution told them they are ;)

Wake up; reject your programming and start asking the right questions. It's never wrong to stand up for The Constitution; even if the cool kids on RME make fun of you for doing so.

It is a total waste of resource in my opinion (and the citizens of this state too), RMP's are going to get blasted down and we are going to lose major traction (pun intended) and meanwhile everyone will still be 'taking back Utah' as we continue to lose access. Even the politicians that proposed the Utah land swap said a. it was unconstitutional a b. it was never going to happen. They are obviously not convinced and after a dozen+ threads I don't know that anyone here is getting convinced either?

Underestimating the power and community support of SUWA et al is extremely blinding. They have far more money and active and vocal supporters than many give them credit for. I.e. 99% of Utahans do not oppose SUWA. While I feel the majority do not support their revocation of access and management folly, a good number do and that numbers donations and outcry trump the collection of majority.
 
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spencevans

Overlander
Location
Farmington
Land use is always a sensitive and tricky issue and at times I find my self on both sides of the issue but in no way do I agree with SUWA. At times I will be wheeling and I wish I had access to trails I have had access to in the past. On the other hand sometimes I will be hunting and the mountains seem so overrun with UTV's, Motorcycles and 4wheelers that it takes the fun out of it.

While this issue is different and I am very familiar with areas in question, I think this issue is more complex than meets the eye. Personally I have no issue with trail system in that area, but I am bothered by those who act irresponsibly and drive off the trails and mark up all the buttes and hills. It seems like a select few are giving the rest of us a bad name. That being said, the SUWA is not looking to compromise and they will not be happy until all access has closed off. It looks like we are in for a battle.
 

jackjoh

Jack - KC6NAR
Supporting Member
Location
Riverton, UT
X4

Now that the Fed has decided the Fed can't manage the land properly and has ruled it shut down, how do you think SUWA will do with their other challenges? When do we abandon our "they do a better job than UT because the state will close it all down and sell out to oil" argument? When is it time to question the Fed's standing on this issue from the get-go?
Instead of pages of why I'm wrong in my Constitutional stand against Fed ownership of land, how about picking it up and having a read?

As I've stated multiple times: the Fed is in the land management business because the Fed says they're in the land management business.

Wake up; reject your programming and start asking the right questions. It's never wrong to stand up for The Constitution; even if the cool kids on RME make fun of you for doing so.

Kooler than Mudd.

I've read the Utah constitution, you know one that states: "The people inhabiting this State do affirm and declare that they forever disclaim all right and title to the unappropriated public lands lying within the boundaries hereof, and to all lands lying within said limits owned or held by any Indian or Indian tribes, and that until the title thereto shall have been extinguished by the United States, the same shall be and remain subject to the disposition of the United States, and said Indian lands shall remain under the absolute jurisdiction and control of the Congress of the United States."

The land can be given back to Utah as it has been in other states and as the Panama Canal was. Of course this is all just talk until a majority of Utahan's become concerned enough to force action from their elected officials or will put enough money into a NGO to do it. How does it feel to be a minority.
 

Stephen

Who Dares Wins
Moderator
The land can be given back to Utah as it has been in other states and as the Panama Canal was. Of course this is all just talk until a majority of Utahan's become concerned enough to force action from their elected officials or will put enough money into a NGO to do it. How does it feel to be a minority.

Man, is there anything left of this horse? We've kept beating it long after it's dead!

Sure, anything can happen. Will this happen? I highly doubt it. Should it? Emphatically no. Would Utah exerting direct control over these lands have prevented this decision? Doubtful.

In regards to the Canal Zone, that was created under a treaty with a foreign power and really has no bearing in the debate over public land ownership in Utah.
 
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ZUKEYPR

Registered User
1. The State could not afford that litagation to take back Utah, it would be by far cheaper fighting SUWA

2. Do your really thing for a split second that in the impossible event that they would give ownership back to the State Government that they would keep it all open for access to all? That's retorical, they would lease and sell it as a tax revenue monster.

3. Yes the 5% rule again.......although I think it's a bit higher. 5% knuckleheads doing whatever it is they want to do in their motorized vehicle going anywhere they want to with the "I'll do whatever I please attitude" ruins it for the other 95%.

4. The otherside of that coin is have you been on a hiking trail lately and seen all of the illegal swtich backs and bucu water bottles lying around?

5. There is only one way to beat SUWA and that is by shear volume, but I've given up that fight years ago just as many of my friends have because just like most Americans "The give a crap factor" doesn't kick in until it directly effects them you therefore can never surmount the shear volume required to beat big money.
 

sixstringsteve

Well-Known Member
Location
UT
from the BRC (I wish I could keep the formatting from the email):

Dear BRC Action Alert Subscriber,
I just got a "dispatch" from our intrepid former public lands guy, Brian Hawthorne, regarding the recent decision in SUWA's big anti-access lawsuit.
We haven't announced it formally, but Brian is serving in a volunteer capacity as our official "Utah Policy Advisor."
Anyway, I took the liberty of editing Brian's analysis into a Land Use Update alert for our Utah members.
BRC and our Utah partners are taking this lawsuit very seriously. The court has yet to decide on any "on-the-ground" changes to the existing travel plans, but SUWA has already announced that it intends to move quickly into its challenges on five other Plans for the Moab, Price, Vernal, Monticello and Kanab field offices. With characteristic bravado, SUWA predicts these Plans will topple "like dominos in a line." It is time for the OHV community to decide if it will stand up to SUWA, or idly watch their prediction come true!


As always, please call or email if you have any questions or concerns.
Ric Foster
Public Land Department Manager
BlueRibbon Coalition
(208) 237-1008 ext 107
SUWA Lawsuit Analysis:
Bureaucratic Process Trumps Common Sense
Friends,
It was always a possibility that SUWA would score some type of favorable decision out of the Richfield Field Office, so I was eager to read the Court's decision.
Background:
For those just finding out about this lawsuit, please check our previous updates here, here and here.
SUWA has 3 key "pillars" in their latest lawsuit. One pillar consists of claims we've seen before, and which are staples in any foundation-funded anti-access lawsuit:
BLM violated NEPA (National Environmental Policy Act) by not doing enough environmental impact analysis,
BLM violated FLPMA (Federal Land Policy and Management Act) by not designation enough Areas of Critical Environmental Concern and/or potential Wild and Scenic Rivers
BLM violated FLPMA by failing to ensure compliance with federal and state air quality standards.
BLM violated the National Historic Preservation Act ("NHPA") by failing to take into account the impact of OHV routes on archeological sites
Another pillar is a claim that BLM is violating the law by not considering OHV impacts on global warming. I'll note that SUWA doesn't seem to be at all concerned about the carbon emissions of hikers who fly in from Europe, Asia and all over the US to enjoy public lands in a manner they deem acceptable. But that'll be fodder for another pithy update some day.
SUWA is also claiming BLM violated its own regulations by authorizing OHV routes, without "minimizing the impacts on soils, vegetation, wildlife, air, water, and cultural resources."
The "minimization criteria" began as a "Executive Order" and has been around since 1972 (Nixon administration). It directs federal land managers addressing motorized access to "consider effects...with the objective of minimizing" damage to natural resources. The Executive Order's requirements are intended to be placed in the context of BLM's overarching multiple-use mandate.
The Court's decision:
The Court denied most of SUWA's claims, but ruled:
BLM's plans were deficient in considering the "minimization criteria,"
BLM failed to properly consider Happy Canyon Wash and the spring areas of Buck and Pasture Canyons for eligibility and suitability as Wild and Scenic Rivers
BLM failed to properly consider whether portions of the Henry Mountains should be designated "Area(s) of Critical Environmental Concern.
Perhaps most concerning is the Court's decision regarding compliance with the National Historic Preservation Act. Although an agreement between BLM and Utah's State Historic Preservation Office does not require it, the court here seems to be directing the BLM to conduct a Class III archeological survey of every linear foot of every designated route.
Currently, BLM requires the Class III survey for new routes or for activities that require a permit. If a route has existed on the ground, (most routes on BLM's travel plans have existed for many decades) the BLM has conducted cultural surveys on an "as needed" basis.
This decision could raise the bar considerably. Indeed, SUWA is pushing for a "rigorous timetable" for BLM to conduct all these costly archeological surveys and they will demand thousands of miles be immediately closed unless and until the surveys have been completed.
Of course, BLM does not have the funds to conduct all these surveys. And that, dear BRC member, is precisely what SUWA is counting on.
Bureaucratic process trumps common sense - erodes public support for public lands
Years ago, BLM allowed motorized vehicles to travel anywhere. Everyone agreed that with the popularity of OHV use increasing, it would probably be best to limit motorized use to designated routes. Across Utah, those travel plans eliminated cross-country travel (except in dune areas) and closed thousands of miles of roads and trails.
Now, our federal courts have decided that isn't enough.
Paul Turcke, BRC's attorney, was quoted in a national environmental daily as saying the ruling "epitomizes form over substance." Turcke said "The effort to 'minimize' vehicle travel drips from every page of current agency analysis, yet the courts seem to want a more detailed explanation of every factor considered on every route. The result will be costlier decisions, but not better decisions."
The three branches of our Government seem intent on nitpicking one another into regulatory and fiscal oblivion. I am no student of history but have some vague awareness that there is a historical model that predicts such an outcome for waning empires.
What is our next step?
The immediate next step in the litigation is for the parties file briefs on the proper remedies as a result of this decision by December 6, 2013. The court will then decide what BLM must do to remedy the flaws in their analysis. Although SUWA has already announced it will be pushing for immediate closures, it is impossible to predict what the outcome could be at this time. It is essential that OHV advocates have sufficient resources to withstand and counteract SUWA's offensive.
At that point, the case will move to another BLM office, perhaps Price or Moab. This will mean that thousands of miles of epic recreational roads in Moab and the San Rafael Swell will be under attack.
What you can do to help:
The fight for public access to public lands takes place on three key playing fields. Right now, the battle is raging in the legal and political arenas.
BRC 3- STEP ACTION ITEM HERE
#1 = Become a BRC Pledge Partner: As little as $10 per month makes a huge
difference in helping us continue the fight to keep your public lands open.
#2 = Bring a Friend to this Fight: Don't just tell your friends and family
about BRC and what we do. Convince them to make a pledge and
join us in our fight by becoming members.We can't do this alone, but
together we can win this battle.
#3 = Contact your Political Representatives: Tell your U.S. Representative
that reform is needed with our public land laws. The latest lawsuit by the
Southern Utah Wilderness Alliance shows access to vast areas of Utah's
scenic backcountry is at risk. Encourage them to step up and fight for our
rights to view and enjoy our public lands.

The BlueRibbon Coalition is a national recreation group that champions responsible recreation, and encourages individual environmental stewardship. With members in all 50 states, BRC is focused on building enthusiast involvement with organizational efforts through membership, outreach, education, and collaboration among recreationists. The Combined Federal Campaign (CFC) season is here. Federal employees, please mark BlueRibbon Coalition and Check #11402 on your CFC pledge form to support our efforts to protect your access. Join us at 1-800-258-3742 or http://www.sharetrails.org
 

cruiseroutfit

Cruizah!
Moderator
Vendor
Location
Sandy, Ut
...The land can be given back to Utah as it has been in other states and as the Panama Canal was. Of course this is all just talk until a majority of Utahan's become concerned enough to force action from their elected officials or will put enough money into a NGO to do it. How does it feel to be a minority.

Right Jack, we have been down this road over and over. Joseph claims Utah has "Constitutional stand against Fed ownership of land" and Utah's own constitution says otherwise. As I've detailed over and over, I know the Fed can return lands to the state through a congressional process but there is absolutely zero requirement or constitutional reasoning for them to do it. They won't... not happening so it is a waste of resources to continue down that road in my opinion.
 

JL Rockies

Binders Fulla Expo
Location
Draper
http://www.constitutionalconcepts.org/a-01-08-17.htm

Look, Utah is more than a thousand miles away from any of my problems; I've no dog in this fight anymore. My next trip out there will be 10/14 and there will still be at least a couple areas for me to expo in so I'm good.

The US Constitution is clear on the issue; you can choose to stand up for it or manage it's decline.

Mike Lee is like progressive kryptonite; I'd start with a talk with him.

How can UT do a better job managing/enforcing rules than the Fed? Boots on the ground. Currently, how many rangers are there per region? I don't know, but it's not a lot.

Let's say these regions transferred to state control; the current staff couldn't stretch that far and would need to expand. How many people would sign up to be trained/certified to be state volunteer Rangers? How many people on RME alone world spend at least one if their days off on duty as trail patrol? My guess is the state would have an army of people sign up.

The state can do a better job managing/protecting the land than any Fed agency because it's full of people that own it for realz.


Kooler than Mudd.
 

DAA

Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
The state can do a better job managing/protecting the land than any Fed agency...

Joseph, the state "can" do a better job. The problem is, and I think most who have lived here all their lives would agree, there's absolutely no chance that they "will" do a better job. They'll rape and plunder and grift and graft and make generational money for themselves. It's what Utah state politicos do. It's what they've always done.

Can you guys imagine the money old Greasy Grifter Norm B. would have piled up if he were running the show when these lands changed hands? Good gawd...

Herbert is a lot slicker. Doesn't have that Nixon like sweaty upper lip for TV that Norm had. But he's from the same club. And so will the next person in that seat be.

Scott Matheson ain't coming back.

It's just my opinion, nothing more, but as much as I despise Federal control of anything, I just don't have even the slightest shred of faith that the state of Utah would make me any happier. I believe that rather than just losing motorized access, we'd be losing the resource to the highest bidder.

- DAA
 

mbryson

.......a few dollars more
Supporting Member
.....

It's just my opinion, nothing more, but as much as I despise Federal control of anything, I just don't have even the slightest shred of faith that the state of Utah would make me any happier. I believe that rather than just losing motorized access, we'd be losing the resource to the highest bidder.

- DAA

That's a solid summary of my opinion of our state govt.
 
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