Camping tips:The Sleeping bag

[mesha]

Sleeping bags The basics and how to stay warm.

I get a lot of emails, PMs, and calls about this stuff. I love to answer them so here is a summary of some of the stuff.
Different types of insulation
Down and Synthetic
Down Pros
Lighter
More compressible
Lasts about 4 times longer
Better for the environment
Can be positioned where needed

Synthetic Pros
Cost is less
Possibility of heat retention when wet
Stays in place better filling wise
Resistant to rot, mildew and smells.
Synthetic bags offer more protection from the ground.

Down cons
Costs about twice as much
Shifts around more without proper baffles
Can leak out of the bag through stitching and fabric
Need to wash more than synthetic

Synthetic Cons
Loses loft faster
Heavier
Requires petroleum to produce
Doesn’t last as long

Types of shells inner and outer
Canvas
Canvas is very durable. Not good at wet weather because it wicks up water like a sponge. It is cool cause you look like a cowboy.
Nylon
It is usually a little water resistant or a lot depending on type of nylon. Can be less durable if it is a cheaper nylon. Ripstop nylon is very durable, but a little rough to the touch. Nylon teffeta is very durable and soft to the touch as well.
Microfiber
Soft to the touch, pretty water resistant, and feather resistant. Almost windproof.
Polyester
Don’t want to talk about it. It varies too much it can be nice or crappy usually depending on how much you spend.
Flannel
Warm but bulky. Flannel is usually made of cotton. When flannel gets wet you will be cold.

Types of bags (this will be brief as most are familiar with this)
Mummy
Not good for the claustraphobic.
Mummies are more efficient at heating up
less wasted space.
weigh less.
smaller in size.
Rectangle
More leg room.
More stuff to heat up.
Greater chance of air escaping around body.
Bigger.
Semi rectangular
In between the other two.

Features to look for
Hood
These keep your head warm and are great for putting you pillow /arm on.
Draft tube
Draft tubes run the full length of the zipper and are used to prevent heat from leaving through the Zipper.
Draft collar
These run around your neck and or chest. These keep warm air from moving past your head while you roll around.
Boxed feet
Keep your toes from being squished
Warmer feet
Baffles
Sewn in side the bag to keep insulation from moving around. These could be considered down dams. Some bags will stitch the inner and out bags together to make baffles.
Down fill power
This is amount of loft per ounce of down. It is done in a graduated cylinder. 550 is bad, 850 is the best. 900 only happens if you wash it and then dry it with an air dryer and set it a little at a time in the cylinder. Not possible in real world.
Sleeping bag care
Wash your bag with down wash if it is down.
Wash it more often than you do (what you can wash sleeping bags?).
Don’t store it in the compression sack. If you bag is synthetic you are destroying about 10 degrees a year when you keep it compressed.
Store it in a breathable laundry bag or cotton sack of some sort.
Don’t store it in a garbage bag.
After you wash it dry it lowest heat with a couple of tennis balls or something with a little mass to break up the clusters of feather to help it loft out.

Sleeping bag warmth
It doesn’t matter what you temperature rating is. Loft is the key. Loft is how “poofy” the bag is. If you want to know the loft leave you bag out for awhile and then measure it from the ground up with a ruler.

Loft is the term for how thick a bag is.
Loft only really matters on the top of the bag as the bottom will be squished.
Loft is loft regardless of the material (of course some exceptions)
2” of down is the same as 2” of newspaper (weight and density will change).

General rules that will differ according to metabolism.
2.5” is equal to about 0 degrees
1.5” equals about 40 degrees
8” is good to about -60
The relationship between loft and warmth is not linear

Tips
Make sure you have calories in your body to burn.
My wife keeps a bag of Hersheys kisses next to her bag when winter camping and pops one in her mouth every couple of hours to add some calories to the system.
Change you clothes, socks, underwear, headgear, everything before you get into your bag.
Nakedness does not equal warmth in you bag that is an old wives tale. This comes from old guys climbing into their bags with wet cotton long johns on. Of course you will be cold.
Sleep socks are awesome, but need to be loose fitting.
You need to be sleeping on a pad. Thermal heat transfer occurs significantly fast with conduction than convection. You pad is MORE important than your bag. (Article on pads forthcoming)
Cover your head.
Vapor barriers can greatly increase your bags warmth, but some feel icky when sleeping in one.
You need to stop heat transfer. You never get cold, you get less warm. Heat moves from hot to cold not the other way.
The types of heat loss are conductive, convective, evaporative, radiative. Slow these down and you will be warm.

 

[ret32]

It isn't a sleeping bag material per se, but what comments do you have about wool? I know a lot of people use wool blankets with their bags.


In my tent, we are all anti-sleeping bag (as far as their traditional use). We use our sleeping bag as a blanket (sometimes zipping them just around our feet in very cold weather to keep from wiggling out). Then we supplement with additional blankets as the temperature dictates.

We've been strongly considered switching from using regular blankets and quilts from home to using wool blankets as our supplemental blankets. We've even considered using wool blankets instead of sleeping bags. The primary motivation is maximizing warmth while minimizing packing size. Keeping in mind that, for ease of packing and unpacking camp each day, we prefer to fold and stack our bedding (sleeping bags included), rather than roll and stuff our bedding. So compressibility is kind of a different issue for us. The way bedding compresses into a stuff sack is very different from the way it compresses as a folded stack underneath other gear.

Comments?

 

[DOSS]

Ret... based on the way that you use and store your bedding while on the trail have you given any thought to using Down blankets with Microfiber outers and built in foot pockets? Then store then folded and in something like a space saver to compress them down to a much smaller size and still fit in your current storage configuration? I would also suggest instead of the wool blankets the fluffy microfiber blankets, faster drying, still warm when wet and lighter/more compact-able

 

[mesha]

It isn't a sleeping bag material per se, but what comments do you have about wool? I know a lot of people use wool blankets with their bags.


In my tent, we are all anti-sleeping bag (as far as their traditional use). We use our sleeping bag as a blanket (sometimes zipping them just around our feet in very cold weather to keep from wiggling out). Then we supplement with additional blankets as the temperature dictates.

We've been strongly considered switching from using regular blankets and quilts from home to using wool blankets as our supplemental blankets. We've even considered using wool blankets instead of sleeping bags. The primary motivation is maximizing warmth while minimizing packing size. Keeping in mind that, for ease of packing and unpacking camp each day, we prefer to fold and stack our bedding (sleeping bags included), rather than roll and stuff our bedding. So compressibility is kind of a different issue for us. The way bedding compresses into a stuff sack is very different from the way it compresses as a folded stack underneath other gear.

Comments?

I agree with what Doss said.
Wool is great stuff. Especially if you can find a good merino wool blanket. Most people find wool a little itchy, but merino wool would counteract that.
Wool retains most of its warmth when wet
wool is a natural substance and evolution made it better than we can.
blankets are really the only way to go. We usually sleep with blankets in our tent as well. We use the thermarest ventra down comforter and for extra insulation we use thermarest tech blankets. The tech blankets are what we use lounging around the house as well.
ventra
http://cascadedesigns.com/therm-a-rest/sleep-systems/insulation/ventra-down-comforter/product
tech blanket
http://cascadedesigns.com/therm-a-rest/sleep-systems/insulation/tech-blanket/product
not really cheap options, but worth it in my opinion. Wool would be much less expensive.
I guess to make a long response longer, wool would work great for what you stated, but I think there are better, although more pricey, options.

 

[ret32]

...Down blankets with Microfiber outers and built in foot pockets?...

Haven't looked at them. Sounds like a good, though pricey option. Thanks for the heads up.

...Then store then folded and in something like a space saver to compress them down to a much smaller size and still fit in your current storage configuration?...

I'm not sure stuffing a space saver would be any less time consuming then stuffing a stuff sack.

...I would also suggest instead of the wool blankets the fluffy microfiber blankets, faster drying, still warm when wet and lighter/more compact-able

Didn't know the microfiber blankets retained heat when wet. I've just assumed it was similar to fleece, other than being good at picking up lint. Great idea!

We use the thermarest ventra down comforter...http://cascadedesigns.com/therm-a-rest/sleep-systems/insulation/ventra-down-comforter/product...

$$$!!!

...and for extra insulation we use thermarest tech blankets...http://cascadedesigns.com/therm-a-rest/sleep-systems/insulation/tech-blanket/product...

$$ A little better

...Wool would be much less expensive...

$

Thanks for the responses. Good to have the info.

 

[DOSS]

I'm not sure stuffing a space saver would be any less time consuming then stuffing a stuff sack.

Fold, Slide into Space saver then set the cooler on top of it to compress the air out while you fold up the tent .. a slight bit more work yes but it will give you more room when stored as well as more insulating properties thus less blankets needed for same amount of warmth

 

[SAMI]

I used to work at a feather and down laboratory. I had tested some down that scored over 900 on occasion. We would run double tests, ad have a second employee run multiple tests to verify.. I remember some of those high scoring samples would have down clusters that were nearly the size of my head. It was cool to think that those high-end goose down clusters would be accompanying someone on some extreme trips, and most likely keeping them alive.

 

[mesha]

I used to work at a feather and down laboratory. I had tested some down that scored over 900 on occasion. We would run double tests, ad have a second employee run multiple tests to verify.. I remember some of those high scoring samples would have down clusters that were nearly the size of my head. It was cool to think that those high-end goose down clusters would be accompanying someone on some extreme trips, and most likely keeping them alive.

Did those test that way after they had been fluffed up, or did you pull them out of a compressed sleeping bag from a back pack and then test them? 900 exists but not in the real world. I guess technically if it is 900 under perfect conditions then it is 900, but....

 

[SAMI]

Did those test that way after they had been fluffed up, or did you pull them out of a compressed sleeping bag from a back pack and then test them? 900 exists but not in the real world. I guess technically if it is 900 under perfect conditions then it is 900, but....

Fluffed up, yes. IIRC, we would do 3-5 tests on the same batch of down/feathers then average the number of tests done, and that would be the score. What we were doing was testing small samples of massive batches for any/every company in the world that makes/produces goods that have down and/or feathers inside of them.. Patagonia, Walmart, Target, North Face, Costco, Coleman, Lands End etc, etc..... We would send them the results of our tests and they would be required to label the products made with those batches with the numbers that we tested at. Quality control for the worldwide down/feather market...

It was an interesting job.

 

[sixstringsteve]

great writeup davy!

Question. If I have an 850 fill down 0 degree bag, will it be warmer than a 650 fill down 0 degree bag?

 

[mesha]

Fluffed up, yes. IIRC, we would do 3-5 tests on the same batch of down/feathers then average the number of tests done, and that would be the score. What we were doing was testing small samples of massive batches for any/every company in the world that makes/produces goods that have down and/or feathers inside of them.. Patagonia, Walmart, Target, North Face, Costco, Coleman, Lands End etc, etc..... We would send them the results of our tests and they would be required to label the products made with those batches with the numbers that we tested at. Quality control for the worldwide down/feather market...

It was an interesting job.

Most reputable companies don't claim 900 fill power. The north face does.
Sounds like an AWESOME job! I would love to do it for a month or so.

great writeup davy!

Question. If I have an 850 fill down 0 degree bag, will it be warmer than a 650 fill down 0 degree bag?

If it has the same amount of loft the warmth will be the same.

now for my rant.
To achieve the same loft the 650 fill bag will have to put more feathers in the bag. The 650 fill bag is more dense and there is debate on weather or not density is good or bad for sleeping bag warmth. If the medium remains the same(down) then the more dense the material the higher heat transfer coefficient it should have. It will warm up more quickly and cool down more quickly. In my opinion the density is a moot point. The coefficient of heat transfer should only really matter in conductive heat loss. Density would help to slow convective heat loss and radiative heat loss in the upper section of the sleeping bag. which is the type of heat loss that mater on the top of you. Underneath you conduction occurs. the term dead air space is used in loft because air is a great insulator. the feather are just creating a lot of dead air. The feathers aren't themselves that great. Air has a coefficient of 0.024 whereas dense concrete is 1.5 so you can see why sitting on the cold cement causes you to lose heat so fast. It carries heat away from you at a rate 60 times fast than air.

 

[SAMI]

Most reputable companies don't claim 900 fill power. The north face does.
Sounds like an AWESOME job! I would love to do it for a month or so.

The list of compaines were merely to make a point of the clients that we tested for, not to give a list of those who did 900fp samples. I only saw a 900 once or twice in the few years that I worked there.

 

[Rot Box]

Great writeup! Thanks for taking the time to put this together

I hate spending money as much as anyone else, but one of the best investments I've made was buying a sleeping bag designed for the temperatures I wanted to sleep in--especially during winter. My current bag hasn't let me down yet, but I'm really wanting to pull the trigger on a Wiggy's: http://wiggys.com/about.cfm

 

[mesha]

^ I have heard amazing things about the Wiggys bags, but have never owned one. Wiggys, feathered friends, and western mountaineering seem to be in the same league that few others belong to.
Most people don't realize the value of blowing a large pile of cash on a bag till they do it. Then they wonder why it took them so long.

I just picked up a new "bag" this last weekend.
http://cascadedesigns.com/therm-a-rest/sleep-systems/insulation/alpine-down-blanket/product

We will see how it works

 

[2INSANE]

Wool all the way! I once spent 3 months straight in the woods wearing nothing but wool and liners to separate the precipitation from the skin and wool. Plus liners help reduce itching. I know from experience from standing and hiking in the down pours of rain while wearing wool and wool for sure retains heat better then, i think, any other product out there. The blankets mixed with poly is a good combo to sleep in. Poly as your first layer then wool as second layer.

 

[kd7kmp]

Dave,

I got that same "bag" a few weeks ago. I used it camping in the Pilot Range for two nights. Temps got down to about 45 at night. I slept on my low-rise cot with the TAR Neoair I got from you. I was nice and warm all night. It will be a great, light weight option from late spring through early fall.

Kevin

 

[mesha]

Dave,

I got that same "bag" a few weeks ago. I used it camping in the Pilot Range for two nights. Temps got down to about 45 at night. I slept on my low-rise cot with the TAR Neoair I got from you. I was nice and warm all night. It will be a great, light weight option from late spring through early fall.

Kevin

Good to hear from you again kevin!
the quilts are so dang comfy.

I did 3 nights during the deer hunt at 8000ft in monticello. It was below freezing and snowing. I was in the RTT and warm as could be.

 

[JL Rockies]

The final word in expo-approved sleep systems

 

[mesha]

The final word in expo-approved sleep systems

I talked with the guys that started the selk bag at the O.R. show a couple of years ago. I put one on and they were extremely warm. The price has come down a little too.

 

[MOODY]

I have used a Western Mountaineering Badger MF as my primary bag for the past 7 years. It isn't cheap, but I know when it is pushing the 15 degree mark, it is truly a 15 degree bag. I can't say that about many of my other sleeping bags which claim even a 20 degree rating.

http://www.westernmountaineering.co...eping Bags&cat=Microfiber Series&ContentId=34

I have since added WM bags for summer and winter use, plus a rectangular Ponderosa for shoulder season camping.

Davy's first post is spot on.

When I worked for Kirkham's, I had people wanting to buy sleeping bags, but they wanted a down bag with a price tag of $200 or less. I stressed to them the importance of a comfortable night's sleep and encouraged them to save their pennies and buy the best bag we sold (WM bags). I had people come in and thank me after the fact.

If you are a weekend warrior, KOA camper, or you only camp in the summer, a cheaper alternative is just fine. If you venture where you must trust your gear with your wife's happiness ( ) get a quality sleeping bag and a quality pad to match.