Center of gravity?

zukijames

Well-Known Member
Location
not moab anymore
Hey thanks bob! Don't worry truss is getting a bunch more added to it.

So your saying I have too much triangulation on my uppers?

I was wondering if i did..

Also your saying my upper axle mounts are too close together?

I thought you wanted them close .. Before I had a wishbone 3 so I figured this would be fine ..

I have thought about bringing the upper frame mounts closer together
 

skippy

Pretend Fabricator
Location
Tooele
Anti squat is a huge concern with that much vertical separation at the axle.
 
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RockMonkey

Suddenly Enthusiastic
Hahaha so all you experts tell me why lower links is better..


Also its funny you say the who'd Internet says lower the lower links there are plenty of pros running high lower links..


It's kinda sad how this forum is turning into this.


People saying you have to do it this way, but I don't know why you have to

You don't have do to everything the same as the other guy..

Any real insite on reasons why I can't run my links like this please speak up


I can run them higher in my frame.. They are flatter and longer

I'm not an expert but as far as I can tell those are good things
Dude, I'm not trying to be unfriendly. You must know something is not quite right, because you keep bringing it up. Just about everyone tells you to lower them, but you don't. Then you post again looking for reassurance that you're doing this right. I really am trying to be helpful. The way you are building it will probably work, but it could work better with the links lower.

1. You want your links this high because you want them perfectly flat. The reason this is good is because you get a low anti-squat number in your calculator, which leads to good handling characteristics. You get less hopping, less jacking up of one side on steep ascents, etc. You can eliminate all these concerns by running the lower links from the center of the axle tube to the bottom of the belly, and the top links parallel, and a few inches above the top of the differential. Your anti-squat number may not be as low as you have it now, but it will be plenty low enough to work perfectly. From your four-link thread it looks like your frame will be 21" off the ground, which is perfectly reasonable. It says your lower links are at 24". There is no reason for this. Lower the frame side mounts three inches to the same height as the frame, and you can lower the axle side mounts 3 inches with no functional change in anti-squat.

2. You want your links this high because you will get a high roll center, and a high roll center means stability, right? Stability is not just determined by the roll center. It's also determined by the center of gravity. By running your upper links so high, it requires you to move everything above them up just as high. Your fuel cell will be way up high, along with everything else that is mounted above the rear axle. I would argue that center of gravity affects stability more than roll center. Move the upper links down and you'll get a little lower roll center, but you can also get a lower center of gravity, that will offset the change.

3. Compression travel. It's my understanding that you're building this with the intention of doing some racing with it. Racing these days means jumping, and if you're jumping you will need considerable compression travel. With your upper links so high, you will have little room for compression travel without building everything else way up high too (see point #2). Move the links down and you will have more room for compression travel without making your center of gravity higher.

4. Strength. See Bob's post. The taller you build the mounts the more leverage your axle has on them. Building them as tall as you are is going to put a great deal of stress on the bridge you're building. It is very likely you will find it's weakest spot the hard way.

5. Drive shaft protection. One of the nice benefits of building lower triangulated links is that your driveshaft gets protected. You can slide your lower links over rocks all day long without worry, but if you bump your driveshaft into a rock once just a little too hard, it'll tie itself into an instant knot. In your case, you're building the lower links up above the driveshaft, and you lose the protection.

As for doing things the same as everyone else, I'm with you. I do things differently a lot too. Innovation is how we've gotten to the point we're at now. When I proactively seek out advice from people on something I'm not sure about though, I try to listen to the advice that's given.

There is no reason you can't run your links exactly as you have them. You can run them this way, and it will work fine. Overall, it will work better if you lower them. I really think you are relying too much on the link calculator without considering the rest of the system. There is a reason so many veteran builders have told you to lower them, and there is a reason you have second-guessed your decision to build them this high so many times.


[/rant]
 

zukijames

Well-Known Member
Location
not moab anymore
hey rock monkey first off thanks for taking time to lay it out like that , very much appreciated!

second.. i this post and the picture had nothing to do with me questioning my link mount locations.. people just went off with it.. i know where im putting them i know why im doing it and i know they need to be built strong!

#3 i have 12 inches of up where the normal person runs there shock i will be fine

#2 other than a fuel cell i wont have to raise anything and my fuel cell will still be quite low so not worried there

#5 is my biggest worry buy my drive line is short and dif is offset( those problems are a whole other issue) so i dont think i will be hitting it very often


#4 i will be building it very strong dont worry but i can see how under building it could cause alot of problems
 

McGhie

O hey there Pard!
Location
SLC
hey rock monkey first off thanks for taking time to lay it out like that , very much appreciated!

second.. i this post and the picture had nothing to do with me questioning my link mount locations.. people just went off with it.. i know where im putting them i know why im doing it and i know they need to be built strong!

#3 i have 12 inches of up where the normal person runs there shock i will be fine

#2 other than a fuel cell i wont have to raise anything and my fuel cell will still be quite low so not worried there

#5 is my biggest worry buy my drive line is short and dif is offset( those problems are a whole other issue) so i dont think i will be hitting it very often


#4 i will be building it very strong dont worry but i can see how under building it could cause alot of problems

Sounds like you have it all figured out! I sure wish i knew all. You have gotten a lot of great advice from some really great people. Good thing this is not pirate. Good luck on your build!
 

RockMonkey

Suddenly Enthusiastic
I see. I saw that the thread was titled "Center of Gravity", and I thought you realized that your high links were going to give you a center of gravity problem. My mistake. If you build it strong enough it should work fine. Carry on.

Now I'm curious though, where is your fuel cell going that isn't high? By my math, the bottom of your fuel cell has to be at least 45" or it will get hit by your upper control arms (32" upper bolt hole, plus 1" to the top pf the joint, plus 12" of up travel).
 

zukijames

Well-Known Member
Location
not moab anymore
Toyotaman sorry If I came across like I think I know it all!
It's not like that at all , I admit I know very little about suspension and
The reason my mounts are where they are was based off Theroys I learned from people on here..

And thanks everyone for your help if it wasn't for rme I'd be where I was 3 years ago..

Body lift and 30 inch tires
 

zukijames

Well-Known Member
Location
not moab anymore
Rock monkey the fuel cell will be mounted above my upper link mounts at frame so there won't be much movement . Probably a little high but oh well I guess

Sorry if I seemed rude . I post stuff looking forward to your opinions . I wish I knew more about suspension I just know you want them flat,long , lots of vertical separation .

Thats how I built my old suspension it worked well for the most part but my lowers mounted on bottom of frame hanging up on things an swinging my nose on certain climbs.

Here are two videos of my old suspension and my monster 1.3 liters of hamsters

http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=/&gl=US#/watch?v=wBGD4EX7CNE

Click the picture to play video


So this time I knew I wanted my links up above frame and more triangulated

So I just tried to get flatter, more separation, triangulated lowers


I see. I saw that the thread was titled "Center of Gravity", and I thought you realized that your high links were going to give you a center of gravity problem. My mistake. If you build it strong enough it should work fine. Carry on.

Now I'm curious though, where is your fuel cell going that isn't high? By my math, the bottom of your fuel cell has to be at least 45" or it will get hit by your upper control arms (32" upper bolt hole, plus 1" to the top pf the joint, plus 12" of up travel).
 
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Herzog

somewhat damaged
Admin
Location
Wydaho
Sometimes it's hard to portray true emotion through text, especially when tech is involved. I don't think anybody is bashing ya, there's just a lot of us that like to see things done right according to their personal experiences. :D

My advice - do what I do. Learn from others then trial and error. :D If it works how you want it when it's done, you're good! If not, back to the drawing board! I've been back to that damn drawing board a lot... :rofl:
 

zukijames

Well-Known Member
Location
not moab anymore
Lol thanks Herzog !

That's what I decided .. Go for it build it strong, if it works I think it will be really good(atleast compared to my old set up) if it blows up.. Hopefully it cracks first and I see it . Not it blow up and kill me when landing a jump (me I'm not worried about so much but would hate someone else to get hurt because I'm hard headed)
 

zukijames

Well-Known Member
Location
not moab anymore
Hey thanks man.. That was my first try and first time driving the trail.. The next week was ejs and a tried it atleast 20 times.

Ran it before work tried a few times.. Got off work at 11pm went back tried again no luck then ran the trail again at 5am before I had to get to work at 7 lol I miss moab
 

RockMonkey

Suddenly Enthusiastic
Hey thanks man.. That was my first try and first time driving the trail.. The next week was ejs and a tried it atleast 20 times.

Ran it before work tried a few times.. Got off work at 11pm went back tried again no luck then ran the trail again at 5am before I had to get to work at 7 lol I miss moab

It would be awesome to live that close. Maybe I can convince Chicky to retire in Moab or St. George...
 

zukijames

Well-Known Member
Location
not moab anymore
This post has been good for me I've learned alot . And thanks everyone who posted or even looked at it I'm going to go for it skippy is helping me design some more stuff to make it strong and look good!
 
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