Death Canyon v1 (exploration)

[Greg]

Catherine wants to name our first boy Rockwell... :greg: But not due to the influence of Porter Rockwell... (or Rockwell axles!), she just likes the name. And I do too...

I think Porter Rockwell's actions were just the result of the LDS Church leadership getting pushed around, time after time. They got driven out of Illinois, the President of the Church murdered in cold blood, and then chased by the US Government after they fled to UT. Someone had to stand up and take some action, Porter was the man. The LDS Church was able to 'unofficially' defend itself as Porter did the dirty work. That's my option, not doctrine or anything.

I think he would have been a cool person to know... long as you weren't stealing cattle from Brigham! Those were hard times, but I'd love to have lived back then and seen Porters daily doings.

 

[phatfoto]

New motto for me... What Would Porter Rockwell Do? WWPRD...

 

[Hickey]

great write-up on the history

seems a bit biased

Seems pretty accurate to me. Sami, has it ever occurred to you that you might be biased? Mr. Rockwell did some pretty bad deeds. It doesn't mean your church is false.

There is a guy at my work who resembles that picture.

 

[SAMI]

Seems pretty accurate to me. Sami, has it ever occurred to you that you might be biased? Mr. Rockwell did some pretty bad deeds. It doesn't mean your church is false.

There is a guy at my work who resembles that picture.

You are right, he was definately no peach. When i made the 'bias' comment i was refering to the "Brigham said that a slow and painful death would send a message to any other potential rustlers and also help them atone for their sins before they met their maker"

I know Porter was badass, and i suppose that Brigham could've said such a thing.. But it seems a bit excessive to me.. But on the otherhand Brigham was known for his temper.. hence, "Lion of the Lord", and as Greg explained they were in a really really rough, stressful time.. So who knows.

That's all.. I would've loved to be a fly on the wall in those days to see the goings ons around the state.

 

[Cody]

they had a really cool poster of the "city of the mormons" at Utah/Idaho map supply that was from the mide/late 1800's. Pretty cool actually.

 

[Paudrhound]

nice video, did you go into the deep water mine? Wish the overlay captions were a different color hard to read most.

 

[e28bimmer]

Im still workin on the video thing... should get better as time goes on.. we went to the end of the water mine where there was a little work station, a few sledgehammers and a lot of small rr spikes.

 

[themaniam1]

Fun to read and think about. I always get a little apprehensive around mines. I would like to explore them but worry about how safe they are. Was the wheeling any good or just a typical little used two track road?

The stories do not bother me, by beliefs are based on the teachings / gospel and not on a person(s). People are not perfect, even good people. Whether Brigham actually said that or just told Porter to "get the cattle back" maybe questionable but it does add nicely to the story. I like hearing stories about PR.

 

[Cody]

Lots of history and the fact is that the church back then and the church today are very different. Brigham Young was indicted for murder and was the only person by law allowed to manufacture and sell Whiskey (Valley Tan).

Those are just things that are verifiable by record, obviously like any history the "he said she said" stuff is nearly impossible to verify or prove.

 

[themaniam1]

I gusess I should have added that if I had a real problem with the story I would re-resarch the stories to confirm what is written. But I don't have a problem with it and say nice work Corey and thanks for info and the video. Makes me want to go and explore some of the lesser traveled areas of Utah.

 

[SAMI]

A google search doesn't come up with much on this canyon. Kudos to Corey for the stories that he was able to find.

 

[e28bimmer]

Just as a follow up, and not bashing, but there is a book called "indian depradations in the state of Utah" published in 1908 if Im not mistaken, there are newer printings out, but its a compilation of diary entries from settlers and army personnel in the area and their indian interactions. Kind of disturbing to read, but there are numerous account of Porter going out to track down indians and "to prevent further theivery and such", he would often execute indians that were taken prisoner. There is one account of him executing 14 indians, 7 men, 4 "squaws" and three children, who would "no doubt return with thoughts of revenge if left alive"

 

[XT Utah]

It amazes me when people hear the actual LDS church history and consider it "Anti-Mormon"

Maybe this is what Boyd K. Packer was referring to when he said:

"Some things that are true are not very useful."

From: Do not spread disease germs! (Brigham Young University Studies, Summer 1981, pp. 259, 262-271).

Here are some other things that are true but not considered "useful". In other words, you won't hear it in sunday school, or maybe have never heard it before:

Blood Atonement

Brigham Young - If you find your brother in bed with your wife, and you put a javelin through them both, you would be justified and they would atoned for their sins and be received into the kingdom of God. ... "There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of ****** will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it;" Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p. 247 (1856)

Joseph Smith was a polygamist

Some of the women were already married. Some were as young as 14.

http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith,_Jr._and_polygamy

Also, do you know why Joseph Smith was thrown in Carthage Jail? It was because he, as Mayor of Nauvoo, instructed a group of men to destroy the printing press of the Nauvoo Expositor, which had published a paper revealing Smith's polygamous practices.

http://www.lds-mormon.com/06.shtml


View of the Hebrews

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/View_of_the_Hebrews


A fictional book published 7 years prior to the Book of Mormon. Note the similarities:

extensive quotation from the prophecies of Isaiah in the Old Testament

the Israelite origin of the American Indian

the future gathering of Israel and restoration of the Ten Lost Tribes

the peopling of the New World from the Old via a long journey northward which encountered "seas" of "many waters"

a religious motive for the migration

the division of the migrants into civilized and uncivilized groups with long wars between them and the eventual destruction of the civilized by the uncivilized

the assumption that all native peoples were descended from Israelites and their languages from Hebrew

the burial of a "lost book" with "yellow leaves"

the description of extensive military fortifications with military observatories or "watch towers" overlooking them

a change from monarchy to republican forms of government

the preaching of the gospel in ancient America


There is much more but that's it for now. As for me I find knowing the facts very "useful".

Feel free to research other topics such as:

Origins of Temple Marriage

Comparsison of Masonry and Temple Rituals

Danites

Poisoning of Samuel Smith (Successor to Joseph Smith)

 

[scoutabout]

Brigham Young - If you find your brother in bed with your wife, and you put a javelin through them both, you would be justified and they would atoned for their sins and be received into the kingdom of God. ... "There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of ****** will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it;" Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p. 247 (1856)

The complete Journal of Discourses contains a TON of crazy stuff that is now considered false. The excuse I got was that the documented words of the prophet weren't always something to take to heart. How do mormons know when to listen to the prophet and when to disregard their teachings?

What about all the changes to the temple ceremonies? The ceremonies that were supposed to be pre-ordained froim heaven and repeated as they were in the original church ****** first setup. Now they change every so often? There's always an excuse.

Sorry, I don't mean to pile on mormons. I like most mormons. Porter Rockwell is awesome. I think the LDS church is a great social institution for both families and communities. It's not "the one true religion" as it is advertised. That's just my analysis based on a considerable amount of research. When you spend months busting your stake president on factual errors within the LDS faith and the only answer you get is "you must have faith" it's kind of a turn off.

 

[Greg]

Alright guys, that's about enough. I have no problem keeping the discussion on topic, but expounding on issues within the LDS religion doesn't need to be discussed here. RME is a place for all, Mormon and not. I don't want people feeling like their beliefs will be criticized when they visit RME. That goes for Catholics, Presbyterians, Mormons, Christians, Jews, Atheist or whatever you choose to believe.

 

[XT Utah]

The complete Journal of Discourses contains a TON of crazy stuff that is now considered false. The excuse I got was that the documented words of the prophet weren't always something to take to heart. How do mormons know when to listen to the prophet and when to disregard their teachings?

What about all the changes to the temple ceremonies? The ceremonies that were supposed to be pre-ordained froim heaven and repeated as they were in the original church ****** first setup. Now they change every so often? There's always an excuse.

Sorry, I don't mean to pile on mormons. I like most mormons. Porter Rockwell is awesome. I think the LDS church is a great social institution for both families and communities. It's not "the one true religion" as it is advertised. That's just my analysis based on a considerable amount of research. When you spend months busting your stake president on factual errors within the LDS faith and the only answer you get is "you must have faith" it's kind of a turn off.

Hey Steve!

I pretty much share you viewpoint. Whether or not BY's words should have been taken to heart, one could argue that his ideas on blood atonement significantly influenced what happened at Mountain Meadows.

I also don't intend to offend Mormons. Mormonism has done a lot of great things for me (probably kept me out of a lot of trouble) and has influenced me to make a lot of bad decisions as well (marry quickly, have kids before finishing my education, etc).

I would have a lot more respect for the current church if it would drop the continuous glossy PR campaign, completely own up to it's history (and.... no, commissioning 3 church historians to write the history of the Mountain Meadows Massacre is not going to reveal the truth), stop dominating it's members' personal time with an onslaught of meetings and activities, and influence & teach it's members to get their education and establish careers before having kids.

Oh, and Porter Rockwell is cool

 

[XT Utah]

Alright guys, that's about enough. I have no problem keeping the discussion on topic, but expounding on issues within the LDS religion doesn't need to be discussed here. RME is a place for all, Mormon and not. I don't want people feeling like their beliefs will be criticized when they visit RME. That goes for Catholics, Presbyterians, Mormons, Christians, Jews, Atheist or whatever you choose to believe.

Sorry, I was posting my last message when you posted. Im done!

 

[scoutabout]

Alright guys, that's about enough. I have no problem keeping the discussion on topic, but expounding on issues within the LDS religion doesn't need to be discussed here. RME is a place for all, Mormon and not. I don't want people feeling like their beliefs will be criticized when they visit RME. That goes for Catholics, Presbyterians, Mormons, Christians, Jews, Atheist or whatever you choose to believe.

If someone is pointing out factual inaccuracies with regards to a 4-link setup, is that too different than discussing factual inaccuracies within any particular religion? The fact that almost everyone is extremely sensitive about their religion seems to be the difference. Message received, zero distortion. No religion talk of any kind on RME unless it is completely non controversial.

You said, "that's about enough" so I figure now it is enough. EOL.

 

[mtntj]

He looks crazy, I might have bad dreams now!!!!LOL