General Tech Full Hydro steering comparisons

[Greg]

I've been looking at different options for full hydro with a double ended ram and while there are a few well known options (Howe, PSC, Trail Gear), the prices vary and I have to wonder about component quality. A lot of the kits aren't 100% complete though, missing items like a cooler & filter, etc so you have to keep that in mind.

I'm looking for a 2.5" cyl, 8" DE setup and will be mounting the PS pump to a LS engine. I'd rather buy a kit that is mostly complete than piece something together. My build isn't a race car, but a trail "Jeep" that will be running 37-39" tires and see occasional street driving to & from trails. I want it to work well and last without issues.

Obviously PSC and Howe are the top of the line and are known for quality, but is there that much difference in how they work over the more affordable options? I'm really curious about the last 3 listed options, as they start at $960 compared to $1600-1900. How much difference is there in parts quality with a $500-900 savings?


More complete PSC kit (WFO)- $1900 https://www.wideopendesign.com/psc-steering-25-double-end-steering-cylinder-kit-with-ppump

PSC kit from Poly Performance $1400 - https://www.polyperformance.com/psc-2-5-double-end-steering-cylinder-kit

Big Shocks DE kit (affordable)$1100- https://www.bigshocks.com/pro-series-double-ended-steering-ram-kit-dana-44-60.html

Hydraulic Steering Unltd (affordable) $1100- https://hydraulicsteeringunlimited.com/2-5-x-10-double-ended-cylinder-steer-kit/

Trail Gear parts (from ORA) $960- https://www.offroadanonymous.com/product/double-ended-steering-ram-kit-with-orbital-steering-column/

 

[AaronPaige]

I have never personally owned trail gear only psc, but most of the guys I wheel with do, all seam satisfied and I’m jealous knowing they have the same ish product at half price. But even tho I payed more I can’t complain psc has had great customer service and a nice product

 

[N-Smooth]

I watched Ryan struggle with steering issues for a couple seasons and that all went away once he got all PSC stuff and a 3” ram. When it came time to order parts for my build it was a no-brainer.

My .02

 

[Greg]

I watched Ryan struggle with steering issues for a couple seasons and that all went away once he got all PSC stuff and a 3” ram. When it came time to order parts for my build it was a no-brainer.

My .02

Any idea what he was running before?

 

[N-Smooth]

Any idea what he was running before?

TG stuff IIRC. I think upgrading to the bigger ram makes a big difference. The force numbers go through the roof. I was tempted to choose a DE 2.5x10 and get 50 degrees of steering but decided it’s better to have more steering power and less angle. It’s just too frustrating being bound up and not having any steering.

 

[Greg]

TG stuff IIRC. I think upgrading to the bigger ram makes a big difference. The force numbers go through the roof. I was tempted to choose a DE 2.5x10 and get 50 degrees of steering but decided it’s better to have more steering power and less angle. It’s just too frustrating being bound up and not having any steering.

For sure, even not in a competition situation it sucks when you want to turn, but cannot. Been there!

I wonder if the 2.75" cylinders are a good compromise for a trail rig? Looks like Artec has a pretty good deal for a 2.75" PSC kit. - https://www.artecindustries.com/pscfhk400pc

Working area on the 2.5" bore is 3.13^2in, the 2.75" bore is 4.17^2in.

Difference is a 33% gain with a 2.75" cyl. I'd assume turning speed is reduced with a bigger bore cylinder.

 

[Spork]

The trail gear link you had a orbital and ram chart, couldn't you go for a bigger orbital to increase turning speed?

 

[Mouse]

I've run Redneck ram and PSC. PSC was a noticeable increase in quality (ram construction and heim joints). My TJ started with a narrowed '76 ford HPD44 that used assist. When I went to the D60 I changed the steering as well.

My TJ currently has an 8-inch, 2.5 diameter double-ended ram. The hydraulic steering has been flawless and can handle the 40 inch tires without issue I am also running the TJ application PSC pump with their cooler. When installing the lines, I made sure to route them to avoid any sharp bends. I'd have to go look to see which orbital it is.

I connected the steering arms by using a bolt through the tierod position as well to strengthen it. The Dynatrac steering arms were 6.5 in (for normal steering) so I had to add material (length) to used the DE ram.

Driving down the road takes some getting used to as the steering wheel can rotate endlessly (had to remove the TJ clockspring and went with a removable steering while at it). The jeep likes a bit extra caster, especially with the soft suspension. I think 7-10 degrees caster is where it wants to be for decent driving. It is tagged but sees next to no road miles.

I am using swepco fluid now but have also used Royal Purple and Amsoil hydraulic tractor fluid in the past - no issues with any of them.

 

[Greg]

The trail gear link you had a orbital and ram chart, couldn't you go for a bigger orbital to increase turning speed?

That would make sense and I believe so. The orbital offered with the 2.75" cyl from PSC in the Artec link is a 160cc. I'm sure the kits are sized appropriately to match the orbital with the hyd cylinder .

I've run Redneck ram and PSC. PSC was a noticeable increase in quality (ram construction and heim joints). My TJ started with a narrowed '76 ford HPD44 that used assist. When I went to the D60 I changed the steering as well.

My TJ currently has an 8-inch, 2.5 diameter double-ended ram. The hydraulic steering has been flawless and can handle the 40 inch tires without issue I am also running the TJ application PSC pump with their cooler. When installing the lines, I made sure to route them to avoid any sharp bends. I'd have to go look to see which orbital it is.

I connected the steering arms by using a bolt through the tierod position as well to strengthen it. The Dynatrac steering arms were 6.5 in (for normal steering) so I had to add material (length) to used the DE ram.

Driving down the road takes some getting used to as the steering wheel can rotate endlessly (had to remove the TJ clockspring and went with a removable steering while at it). The jeep likes a bit extra caster, especially with the soft suspension. I think 7-10 degrees caster is where it wants to be for decent driving. It is tagged but sees next to no road miles.

I am using swepco fluid now but have also used Royal Purple and Amsoil hydraulic tractor fluid in the past - no issues with any of them.

Great info and feedback Don! Having seen your TJ on 42's working on the trail, it's good to know it works great.

Good info about the additional caster, too!

 

[RockChucker]

My brother had good luck with his surplus center cylinder. The big con though is the mounting feet are welded on and will require extra work if the clocking isn’t ideal for fitting clearance.

I found these nifty ball and sockets from EMF a few years ago. Then promptly forgot about them. These ultimately end up being slightly cheaper than a heim/Clevis setup.

EMF Rod Ends & Steering Components

EMF Rod Ends & Steering Components Evolution Machining & Fabrication Inc

www.emfrodends.com

 

[neagtea]

Those ball sockets are pimp I saw a set on a mega truck build I think they are on surplus center rams.

I have a PSC 2.75 ram and it is ok except I had my idle way low and can bypass in a bad bind. Raised the idle up a couple hundred and am going to try again this week
i wanted a balance between speed and power is why I ended up at the 2.75
i did some work and could use 9” inches of travel so I may do a 10” ram with internal stops
mostly rambling but hope it helps a little

 

[Greg]

Those ball sockets are pimp I saw a set on a mega truck build I think they are on surplus center rams.

I have a PSC 2.75 ram and it is ok except I had my idle way low and can bypass in a bad bind. Raised the idle up a couple hundred and am going to try again this week
i wanted a balance between speed and power is why I ended up at the 2.75
i did some work and could use 9” inches of travel so I may do a 10” ram with internal stops
mostly rambling but hope it helps a little

No, that's great info.... good to hear that you're running the 2.75" ram that we're taking about. Good to know about the idle speed and bypassing in a bind.

 

[Mouse]

Greg, what's your main reason for going with a double-ended ram? Better packaging, 4-link front?

 

[Gawynz]

This thread has been helpful, I intend to upgrade my hydro steering in the near future. Currently on my buggy I have a TG 2.25"bore, 1.125"shaft, 6" stroke. on D60 w/ 45" tires... ya, it's not right haha. The little ram works surprising well though; it does bind up at times, and you can feel the rocks knocking the steering wheel around a bit. Obviously the biggest issue is turning radius, the RME crew that ran Hanging Tree with me last year can attest to my Austin Powers 25 point turn techniques. My brothers D60/40's uses a PSC kit w/ 2.5" bore 8" stroke, my dads D60/42's uses a similar PSC kit but shimmed a 10" ram to 9", both of their steering is much better than mine in terms of smoothness, power, and obviously turning radius.

I don't know if it's any help but below is a spreadsheet I threw together a while back to compare ram options to different orbital valves to help get an idea of the steering lock to lock (tried to attach the .xls but wouldn't let me).

 

[Greg]

Greg, what's your main reason for going with a double-ended ram? Better packaging, 4-link front?

I ran a full hydro single-ended ag ram on my old TJ build many years ago and while it worked great on the trail, there were times that it had gotten bound up and I couldn't steer at all. Plus it wasn't the easiest to drive on the road. It felt 'twitchy' at over 25 MPH on the road, you'd steer and it wouldn't move, then when it finally did, it was too much. Not a good feeling at 30-40 MPH. Not that I plan to drive the Willys on the road too much, but I want to be able to drive to & from trail heads.

I'm hoping a DE ram will be a little more balanced on the road and have more power when the front end gets bound up.

***EDIT*** - I also have dreams of making the Willys capable of bombing down sandy washes and dirt 2-track roads at speed and being comfortable doing so. Not prerunner speeds by any means, but capable of going "fast" and having fun. I think a DE ram will provide more feedback & stability at speed.

 

[Herzog]

I ran a full hydro single-ended ag ram on my old TJ build many years ago and while it worked great on the trail, there were times that it had gotten bound up and I couldn't steer at all. Plus it wasn't the easiest to drive on the road. It felt 'twitchy' at over 25 MPH on the road, you'd steer and it wouldn't move, then when it finally did, it was too much. Not a good feeling at 30-40 MPH. Not that I plan to drive the Willys on the road too much, but I want to be able to drive to & from trail heads.

I'm hoping a DE ram will be a little more balanced on the road and have more power when the front end gets bound up.

***EDIT*** - I also have dreams of making the Willys capable of bombing down sandy washes and dirt 2-track roads at speed and being comfortable doing so. Not prerunner speeds by any means, but capable of going "fast" and having fun. I think a DE ram will provide more feedback & stability at speed.

Most of that behavior is likely the pump/valve combo and not the ram. I'm able to run my buggy down the road @45 mph without that twitchy feeling (same single ended ram as in your photo)

edit: that TJ was so rad

 

[ChestonScout]

The scout systems I pieced together (front and rear)
Both are running surplus center double ended rams and stock PS pumps.

I have never had an issue with these rams. My orbital is a trail gear.

I’m also using the EMF ball sockets on both of them and there isn’t a better solution out there. Complete quality beef.

Keep in mind I am turning 54s as well

 

[Greg]

Most of that behavior is likely the pump/valve combo and not the ram. I'm able to run my buggy down the road @45 mph without that twitchy feeling (same single ended ram as in your photo)

edit: that TJ was so rad

Yeah, I remember talking about the ram during the TJ build and using the same one you have. IIRC, I bought the pump & valve as a kit off.... EBay? I don't remember which orbital it was, but think I had a TC pump?

When it worked, it was fine... but when it didn't, it was bothersome. I remember the steering getting bound up pretty bad on Coyote one time, I was trying to steer out of a hole and the TJ was super tippy. The driver-rear tire was 4' off the ground and I couldn't steer to the right, out of the situation and backing up made it worse. I had to keep driving forward because I couldn't steer out of it. I really want a steering setup that doesn't get bound up like that again.

The scout systems I pieced together (front and rear)
Both are running surplus center double ended rams and stock PS pumps.

I have never had an issue with these rams. My orbital is a trail gear.

I’m also using the EMF ball sockets on both of them and there isn’t a better solution out there. Complete quality beef.

Keep in mind I am turning 54s as well

Very interesting, what size rams are you running Cheston?

 

[ChestonScout]

2.5x10x1.5 DA Double Rod Hydraulic Steering Cylinder Surplus Center | Surplus Center | Brands | www.surpluscenter.com

2.5x10x1.5 DA Double Rod Hydraulic Steering Cylinder Surplus Center, Surplus Center, 2.5x10x1.5 DA DOUBLE ROD HYD CYL, 2.5 x 10 x 1.5 DOUBLE RODSurplus Center,3777 MD 2.5X10X1.5 ,

www.surpluscenter.com

All my hoses are cut to length with reusable fittings. Little higher cost initially but so worth the convenience. Front system I’m using a cooler with a fan. No cooler on the rear

 

[neagtea]

Thinking I want to switch to a cooler with fan, gonna wheel it this weekend and carry a temp gun and gather a little data.
one of the other reasons for raising the idle is to get more voltage since I have 2 coolers and the rad all with electric fans.
the scrambler in my avatar doesn’t have all the electric fans and it is hydro assist and works killer with the super low idle so That is why I started there but different combo needs different thinking