Goblin Valley vandalism

[skiboarder]

He meant they were likely to be LDS because they were with a Scout troop, not because they're jerks .

that is exactly what I meant. These idiots will try to hide behind, and look to the church for help in what they did. The church will not support them. Then they will get mad and leave. It is actions like this that put regulations on and end up cancelling activities that are great and fun for all

 

[blznnp]

that is exactly what I meant. These idiots will try to hide behind, and look to the church for help in what they did. The church will not support them. Then they will get mad and leave. It is actions like this that put regulations on and end up cancelling activities that are great and fun for all

unfortunately people go after the church all the time for things that have nothing to do with the church. Since the church doesn't want to be involved with most of these things an doesn't want to be in some sort of news spotlight, they have settled out of court many times an lost tons of money in settlements because of it. I don't think it will happen in this case, or hope not, but you are right in that they could seek help from the church.

 

[sixstringsteve]

All that said, I wish the LDS church didn't have such a presence in the Boy Scouts of America.

x2. I think both organizations can do great things, but combined they're not so hot.

 

[skiboarder]

unfortunately people go after the church all the time for things that have nothing to do with the church. Since the church doesn't want to be involved with most of these things an doesn't want to be in some sort of news spotlight, they have settled out of court many times an lost tons of money in settlements because of it. I don't think it will happen in this case, or hope not, but you are right in that they could seek help from the church.

you are miss reading everything o am saying wrong. Probably my fault. I am in the young mens presidency. It drives me nuts when people do stupid, illegal, and un ethical things. Then when get caught look to the church for help and support. Like the people who speed and get caught then pull out their recomend to get off. Stand up for what you did wrong and accept it

 

[sixstringsteve]

There's nothing wrong with being an environmentalist and caring for the environment. It's just too bad that the nut-job extremists have tainted the term "environmentalist".

If only more people in the world understood that 4x4 enthusiasts (and mountain bikers, and UTV, and motorcyclists, etc) can be every bit as environmentally concerned as hikers are, we would be in a better place.

 

[DAA]

All that said, I wish the LDS church didn't have such a presence in the Boy Scouts of America.

Why the Outfit chooses to subsidize BSA to the levels that they do has puzzled me for a long time.

A friend who has been deeply involved with BSA for years, calls them the Short Pants Mafia.

Look into the highest paid non profit execs. Hmmm... BSA execs are routinely listed among the highest paid non-profit employees in the country. A few years ago there was a bit of a stink when they paid their top exec something like 1.5 million for the year. Annual income including local councils is over 1 billion. The money flows all the way down to the local council level where for the larger councils, getting paid $100-$250K a year to show up for meetings and make sure everyone ponies up for proper uniform, badging, etc. But that's where the money stops. Everything under that level is done by volunteers. For free. Try and find out what the guys getting paid the big dough actually DO. Everything that actually gets done, gets done by unpaid volunteers. While the fat cats at the top rake it in.

BSA does a lot of good at the ground level. But it's a money making machine in the guise of a non profit above that level. I guess the structure and organization just fits well with the churches young mens activities goals? Really, they make strange bedfellows, from my (outsider) perspective.

- DAA

 

[sixstringsteve]

A friend who has been deeply involved with BSA for years, calls them the Short Pants Mafia.

Try and find out what the guys getting paid the big dough actually DO. Everything that actually gets done, gets done by unpaid volunteers. While the fat cats at the top rake it in.

BSA does a lot of good at the ground level. But it's a money making machine in the guise of a non profit above that level. I guess the structure and organization just fits well with the churches young mens activities goals? Really, they make strange bedfellows, from my (outsider) perspective.

I agree 100%.

I feel like some people feel like they need to be a good scout to be a good member of their church/religion. So we get people going to scouts of out duty rather than because they support the scouting program. This isn't good for either organization. I don't blame a religion or the BSA, rather the self-imposed expectations some of the scouts, parents, and leaders put on themselves when they believe scouts and religion are one in the same.

I've been involved in BSA since I was 7 years old. I've progressed from cub scouts to Eagle Scout. I've been a scout leader for 8+ years. Through all of this, I have seen scouting improve the lives of boys 10 fold. I believe in the principles of scouting wholeheartedly, and I know that when implemented correctly, scouting can be an incredible force for good in the world. When I see half-hearted scout leaders who don't really embrace what scouting stands for, because it's their "duty", that's when I struggle. This attitude transfers to the scouts, and they're scouts in name only (SINO). Either be committed to the ideals of scouting, or leave the organization. If you can't go to a state park without destroying something, scouting is not the organization for you. Do I expect all scout leaders to be perfect? No, but I expect them to try to live for what scouting teaches.

It's a shame we don't hear more stories about scouts who have changed the lives of others through countless hours of service, food drives, community improvement projects, etc. We mainly hear about idiots who are casually engaged in scouting, and due to their association, scouting gets a bad rap.

While scouting and the church (any church)can be mutually inclusive, they don't have to be. Scouting teaches about God, and I can see the overlap, but that doesn't mean they are a substitute for each other. If a leader is only involved in scouting because their religion supports it, not because they love scouting, then they should not be a scout leader.

I love what scouting stands for. I can't stand the money aspect of it. Lord Baden Powell never created the Boy Scouts for financial gain, he created it to improve the community and the lives of its members. Don't get me started on "friends of scouting" donations that go to pay the full-time employees of the BSA.

 

[driver920]

just saying ............... http://www.scouting.org/About/FactSheets/operating_orgs/Catholic.aspx

http://www.scouting.org/About/FactSheets/operating_orgs/Baptist.aspx

http://www.scouting.org/About/FactSheets/operating_orgs/Jewish.aspx

 

[Marsh99]

There's nothing wrong with being an environmentalist and caring for the environment. It's just too bad that the nut-job extremists have tainted the term "environmentalist".

If only more people in the world understood that 4x4 enthusiasts (and mountain bikers, and UTV, and motorcyclists, etc) can be every bit as environmentally concerned as hikers are, we would be in a better place.

That's why tell people I am a true conservative. I am trying to conserve the land that we have for future use.

 

[sixstringsteve]

That's why tell people I am a true conservative. I am trying to conserve the land that we have for future use.

I like it. Rather than people who try to "conserve" it for the future by closing it to the public so nobody can see it.

 

[Kevin B.]

My experience matches Steve's. I was basically in two different troops at the same time as a kid, the ward "troop" that basically consisted of the young men getting together on a weeknight to play basketball in the gym at the ward house, and the other troop that actually went out and did stuff and acted like Scouts. The LDS troops that bothered to show up at Camporee or summer camp were always an embarassment.

It's because most of those kids weren't Scouts because they wanted to be, they were Scouts because their culture said they were supposed to be. They were basically entire Troops full of Scoutmasters' kids.

That's not Scouting, and it's why I'm strongly considering not involving my own boy in Scouts. At least not while we're here in Utah.

 

[DAA]

Non LDS scouting does exist in Utah. When I lived in Rose Park, I used to partially fund a tiny little FOS non LDS troop. Went to a couple of their meetings, the leaders were a pair of lesbians, one of whom had a son that couldn't join the "ward" troop. They kept their sexual orientation to themselves, of course, but it was pretty obvious to me.

It used to kind of blow my mind how broke they were though, and how little money they really needed, but didn't have. Stuff like going to the jamboree at Lagoon, they would do a fund raiser to take all 5 scouts or however many there were, and only come up with like $20, so I'd pay the rest. Which I can't remember how much it was, but I know I wasn't spending much more than about $100. But, still, $100 is $100 and might as well be a million if you don't have it. There were lots of scouting activities that they were just left out of unless someone like me stepped up to pay the fees - so I sometimes did.

But where I live now, I don't think most of the kids or their parents are even aware of all the fees involved with scouting, because the ward picks up the tab and they never even know about it. I know that coming from that little FOS/lesbian troop in Rose Park, to a well funded LDS troop in Davis Co., my mind was kind of blown by how much stuff they have and how nobody ever even asks how much it's going to cost to go to a camp or an activity or whatever.

Two completely separate worlds!

- DAA

 

[sixstringsteve]

There are some great non denominational scout troops here in utah that do a great job at scouting. My favorite camp that does scouting the way I like is camp tifie. Fantastic leaders and camp staff that focuses on improving the boys rather than handing out merit badges with no merit.

Aside from food for camp outs, membership dues, and new tents every 4-6 years, our local lds troop doesn't pay for anything. Scouting doesn't have to be expensive. Attending jamborees, camps, and buying the class A uniform however, IS expensive. I can definitely see how a backing organization would help.

 

[sixstringsteve]

From the outside, scouting looks like a dorky way to teach kids how to carve sticks, apply first aid, and start fires in inclement weather. True, scouting teaches these skills, but that's only part of the picture. You don't need a scout troop to teach your kid these skills.

To me, the greatest value that scouting brings is the way it teaches youth to be leaders. I've seen 14 year old boys completely lead a troop of 80+ kids. The adults just sat on the sidelines and counseled him in planning meetings when he asked for help. He ran meetings, planned events, set goals, motivated others, and reported back on progress. This element of scouting is very hard to replicate in other venues. Yes, it's possible, but scouting (when done properly) is a great organization to teach these things. Your boy simply can't learn leadership skills on a father-son campout like he could if he were responsible for a patrol or troop of boys.

 

[ID Bronco]

So, have these idiots been charged or punished? Any word on the prosecution?

I think a fine is in order but not jail time. They likely support a family who cannot be supported without them.

I love scouts, I sucked at it as a kid, but it has been WONDERFUL for my boys. I was a pretty good leader like Steve described but not all are. I am glad the LDS Church is involved with the BSA. I have studied Bayden Powell quite a bit and we could all learn a great deal from his teachings.

Ton's of good happens because of "individuals" in the BSA, not the actual BSA organization, but I am glad it's organized. I pay for my kids share through camps and friends of Scouting. I feel like no one else (including my ward) should have to pay for my kids involvement.

Here in Idaho tomorrow is the annual "Scouting for Food Drive" I hope you all will support this event. It helps others, teaches the kids about helping others and is a great time to teach them that there are many among us that struggle for basics. Not all kids grow up like many Davis County kids do. Affluence may be our biggest test as a people.

 

[sixstringsteve]

The news story has made it to the San Jose Mercury news, the huffington post, and Fox. Hopefully it leads to legal action.

 

[driver920]

both of my boys are eagle scouts ........ something i never completed was to busy chasing my first wife ......... my oldest went the way of the military and is now at boeing my youngest son went the way of the church on his mission and is now getting his masters in computer engineering and i do honestly beleive that the skills they learned in scouting helped them accomplish the goals they have set for themselves

 

[Kiel]

I think if the scout leader was skinny like an active person should be that is influencing the youth of today, he wouldn't have been able to push it over with all his weight. Outlaw fat scout leaders

 

[sixstringsteve]

I love how they go into PR mode when they get heat, saying they did it for the children. If anything, it sounds like they're trying to convince themselves of their motives.

Too many people feel that legally defensible = moral. With the best lawyer in the world, they may be able to end up with a "not guilty" verdict with no legal consequences. However, that doesn't change the fact that they're lying about their motives behind pushing the hoodoo over.

If a lawyer can defend your position in court, it takes the sting of your lie away to the point that it doesn't feel like a lie anymore. It helps you sleep at night because a judge has determined that your lie wasn't a lie.

 

[sixstringsteve]

The sad part is, these guys are probably fun, normal guys who don't understand the consequences of their actions. That being said, you still need to be held to the consequences of your actions. I'd hate to think about a family growing up without their father because he's in jail for pushing over a rock, but I also hate the idea of people thinking they can "modify" state and national parks because they feel like it.