healthcare vote

[TonyM]

Anybody got an answer to how we add 32 million more people to our healthcare system, without adding a significant amount of new doctors? From what I've read and heard from my own clients that own operate there own practices, many will leave the field because of the added burden of dealing with more Gov subsidized patients... anyone?

 

[Herzog]

Why is the insurance mandatory? Why would you get fined for not having it? These points do NOT seem relevant at all to the over all goal. I would like an explanation.

I personally wouldn't go without health ins, but this just seems really suspicious to me. Why mandatory? I'm sure the ins companies are tickled pink about that part.

Please don't compare it to car insurance unless you think living is a privilege like driving.

 

[dieslcruisrhead]

When a corporation is out to make a profit but the laws state they can violate some basic common sense and respect for their customers then something needs to be changed. The laws and the rights of a health insurance customer do not go hand in hand.. In fact it is 100% opposite - if a health care company takes in insurance premiums but does not pay out then they make pure profit. You guys need to go see the Matt Damon movie The Rainmaker when you get a chance. There are some companies that have denied claims on the first round as much as 80% of the time, no exaggeration. My father in law passed away in November from an accident while hiking in southern Utah. The insurance company (though he had the best possible insurance possible from Delta Airlines) actually had the audacity to deny his coverage for the lifeflight for some stupid stipulation. My mother in law actually started receiving bills for $12,000, $14,000 from insurance denials. After resubmitting it three times they finalyl approved it. Honestly what changed between the first and third time it was submitted? Not a damn thing. She honestly thinks they tried to take advantage of a widow who happened to have the money to be able to afford it. Really scary stuff has been happening and everyone needs insurance, period. We are the only industrialized nation that does not have health care insurance mandates and as a result we each spend more individually than any of those other countries. We are basically getting a really bad deal on our healthcare. Like paying $50G for a car that costs $20G. You guys all feel like we should all keep buying Toyota Corollas for $50,000?

 

[TonyM]

IRS has nothing to do with the healthcare bill, that is crap on the Internet, sorry... Sure, there will be some drawbacks. I agree that big government sucks. I'm not defending Obama and particularly his approach that "government can solve everything" because it can't. But at the end of the day regardless of someone's political opinion this is a move in the right direction. Healthcare is literally bankrupting America. You know what I made this year, $5G for me for a sprained ankle and two runs to the ER for stitches is completely obsurd not to mention the 20% increase in insurance this year...

IRS has nothing to do with this? Why is there funding for 16K (Sixteen THOUSAND) more IRS agents JUST TO ENFORCE this new law....???

 

[dieslcruisrhead]

Why is the insurance mandatory? Why would you get fined for not having it? These points do NOT seem relevant at all to the over all goal. I would like an explanation.

I personally wouldn't go without health ins, but this just seems really suspicious to me. Why mandatory? I'm sure the ins companies are tickled pink about that part.

For the same reason car insurance is mandatory. It is also about as 'constitutional' as car insurance requirements (which are by state, not by the federal government). So if there are issues with the constitutionality of health insurance requirements or arguments against the requirement than you are basically taking the argument that car insurance is a bad idea -- because the stakes are much higher with healthcare costs.

If it helps there were many states that did not have car insurance requirements as recently as 10 years ago. When I was a kid we had a '68 Ford truck with farm plates so we didn't have to pay car insurance. Every single state has gotten rid of these loopholes and there is not a way to not have car insurance any more. In this case it seems to totally make sense to states. Again I can't see why it should be any different for health insurance when the states are much higher?

 

[dieslcruisrhead]

IRS has nothing to do with this? Why is there funding for 16K (Sixteen THOUSAND) more IRS agents JUST TO ENFORCE this new law....???

You might be right but cite a credible news source that states it and I will believe it...

EDIT I just google news searched it and couldn't find a single news source that states there is funding for 16,000 IRS jobs... I saw some references to some GOP congressmen stating this...

Tacoma wrote:

I've been watching the circus on CSpan for a couple minutes when I come in the house today, and I am amazed at some of the ridiculous behavior or these people, on both sides, but mostly from Dems? It's incredible, some of the petty rudeness and smarm.

Couldn't agree more, and from both sides and definitely completely including the democrats...

 

[Herzog]

Andre - I think you will find that most people believe that the healthcare system is jacked as it is and needs a huge change. Similar problems are found all over our economy, basically it's the result of an unchallenged Corporatocracy (link for those wondering wtf) not capitalism.

I don't think there is anybody out there that wouldn't ***** about our current system. I think that most people believe that there is just way too many closed door deals and lack of transparency with this current "fix".

The crappy thing is that the regular media is even further splitting America down the middle with biased reporting. Remember people, it's the same media that's in bed with the insurance companies. Yes, both sides. :gun to head: -edit: They call them Conglomerates.

I dunno what to say other than the news is going to be fun to watch for a while.

 

[Herzog]

For the same reason car insurance is mandatory. It is also about as 'constitutional' as car insurance requirements (which are by state, not by the federal government). So if there are issues with the constitutionality of health insurance requirements or arguments against the requirement than you are basically taking the argument that car insurance is a bad idea -- because the stakes are much higher with healthcare costs.

I disagree and here's why: I don't have to drive, there for I don't have to pay ins. It's not like I can just not live.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

IRS has nothing to do with the healthcare bill, that is crap on the Internet, sorry...

Positive about that?
http://legalinsurrection.blogspot.com/2009/08/irs-new-health-care-enforcer.html

If it were just the right wing outlets reporting it I would believe it, but its everywhere.

Healthcare is literally bankrupting America. You know what I made this year, $5G for me for a sprained ankle and two runs to the ER for stitches is completely obsurd not to mention the 20% increase in insurance this year...

You paid $5k out of pocket? What kind of insurance do you have? Candace and I pay 100% for our own insurance, I guess we've been luck not to feel the 'crunch' others have because its just not that bad. But something has to give and its going to hurt those that have been maintaining the status quo.

 

[TonyM]

Sounds like there are some folks that need to go read the Declaration of Independence ... it lays it out pretty cut and dry... in fact, keep an ear out (As Nancy Pelosi so elequintly said) "We have made healthcare a "Right" to our citizens"... funning thing.... read THE FIRST PARAGRAPH OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE.

Here, I'll save you the searching time...

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.


Heres a link to it's entirety just in case you need some memory jogging...lol

http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/index.htm

 

[dieslcruisrhead]

Tony you should go use this argument to your local rep when you protest your car insurance requirement, that it affects your 'happiness.'

Also the declaration of independence has no legal bearing whatsoever. You are probably thinking of the bill of rights and the amendments in the constitution.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

For the same reason car insurance is mandatory...

Laughable

LIABILITY ONLY auto insurance is required, they don't give a crap what coverage you have for yourself or your car, just the damage your privilege (driving) can enflict upon someone else. In fact if you have a loan you may have to carry comprehensive insurance, again just to protect someone elses assets (the banks in this case) How does this compare to health insurance??? If you get sick, it didn't used to cost the next person money.

Like Shane I fully agree Healthcare needs to be reformed, but this isn't going to make that happen.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Tony you should go use this argument to your local rep when you protest your car insurance requirement, that it affects your 'happiness.'

There you go again with that asinine comparison. When you wreck your car into a bus full of nuns without insurance, your are both f-ed. When you wreck your car into a bus full of nuns with liability only insurance, only you are f-ed. Your happiness is intact and you have not harmed the happiness of others. Fair enough for me.

 

[Herzog]

There you go again with that asinine comparison. When you wreck your car into a bus full of nuns without insurance, your are both f-ed. When you wreck your car into a bus full of nuns with liability only insurance, only you are f-ed. Your happiness is intact and you have not harmed the happiness of others. Fair enough for me.

You guys are friends, right? I don't want to get in a debate with you.

Note added to the first post. Let's keep this debate/discussion intelligent & friendly!

 

[dieslcruisrhead]

OK that is a fair comparison. But if you are hit or injured the funding and regulation exists to make sure you and your property have accesses to resources to replace them and cover your medical expenses.

But again the comments were that it is 'unconstitutional' and particularly if you have liability then you are forced to pay for something that you have no benefit from other than maybe shouldering some legal costs if you get sued for a car accident.

 

[TonyM]

Tony you should go use this argument to your local rep when you protest your car insurance requirement, that it affects your 'happiness.'

Also the declaration of independence has no legal bearing whatsoever. You are probably thinking of the bill of rights and the amendments in the constitution.

But I don't disagree with a requirement for auto insurance. Driving is a privilege, not a right.

The DOI is the underpinning for the constitution... read up...

Here's the link in it's entirety
http://www.americanwriters.org/works/declaration.asp

Declaration of Independence was approved by the Continental Congress on July 4, 1776, and outlined the reasons why the colonies were seeking independence from Great Britain. The document was written by Thomas Jefferson at the suggestion of the

Buy the Book
other members of the Continental Congress. He wrote the draft in June of 1776, and his fellow committee members made changes in wording and added additional charges against King George III of England. The document listed the "self-evident truths" and "unalienable rights" of Americans that Thomas Jefferson based on the philosophy of John Locke, and it provided the reasons why the colonies are seeking independence.
The Constitution was written in 1787 and ratified by the 13 states in March of 1789. The Constitution served as the fundamental law of the United States and established the foundation for a republican form of government with three separate branches: the judicial, executive and legislative. The Constitution was influenced by the United States' experience under the Articles of Confederation which was the country's first written constitution. Individual states had been granted too many rights, weakening the federal government. The Constitution strengthened the central government while still maintaining individual liberties. The first ten amendments to the constitution are known as the Bill of Rights, and they became part of the Constitution on December 15, 1791. The Bill of Rights guarantees Americans the rights to freedom of speech, assembly and religion, among others.

 

[dieslcruisrhead]

You guys are friends, right? I don't want to get in a debate with you.

Note added to the first post. Let's keep this debate/discussion intelligent & friendly!

This happens all the time..

Seriously, it's good for you guys to get some perspective whether you agree with me or not.

Also to answer your question on healthcare, my wife's parents wouldn't let me marry her without getting health insurance. They thought it was insane that I didn't have it (which is probably 40-50% of the time for the last 10 years). I never understood why. They said in the marriage situation because of the legal implications if I were to get injured and rack up a $30,000 bill for a ski or MTB accident or a shop accident (LOL, both stitches issues were at my shop) or whatever, she would then assume the debt. It would completely clean us out of whatever savings we have and we would still ahve to come up with that $$. Losing our house, etc etc etc... And that makes sense... What if I came down with cancer from breathing metal dust and racked up $1.2M in expenses like some people?

So when I chose my insurance, because I am never injured and rarely sick, I chose the $114 a month insurance with a $1000 deductible instead of the $500 good coverage at $134. What a mistake. Turns out the $1000 had a 50/50% co pay stipulation until max out of pocket is reached which is about $5G IIRC. I basically allowed myself to be completely under insured for $25 a month... I also was not allowed to upgrade or downgrade until my 'renewal period' which is in 10 days, finally...

So 30 stitches in my arm was measured by 'depth and severity of the wound' rather than the amount of time and stitches (30 stitches, 50 minutes). I protested the charge for this which I think was about $4600 before insurance. Then 5 more in my foot, sprained ankle in January, and then all of those mental health care costs.. (just kidding)

 

[dieslcruisrhead]

Dude no big deal but I was a few credits shy of a second degree in political science if it helps... There is no constitutional right guaranteeing happiness. I agree with a lot of the premise of the arguement here. Obviously 2nd amendment (the second F'ing amendment, the thing they chose to write after free speech and from of and from religion) is totally watered down and that sucks balls... All I'm saying is the arguments on this one are a little off because people haven't read or looked at the actual issues at state here, that's all I'm saying... Contrary to popular belief the country is pretty f'ing far from going to hell in a hand basket, or at least directly related to Obama... He inherited the largest deficit on the shoulders of the largest economic depression since the great depression. Honestly the fact we're not all f'd is actually pretty remarkable. In the 30's most of us at our income levels would be shit broke panhandling and scrounging for work at all levels right now, like they were in the 30's.. No $$ for off road rigs, guys, sorry, complete utter elimination of our hobby due to economic recession... Go Obama! Sort of just kidding but there is a point here. We could really be F'd. Particularly if McCain were elected and died sometime in the next 8 years like over 1/rd of the people in his age group...

The problem is we are so deep in the hole on this, basically this piece of legislation should have gone through in the 90's and we would be in such better shape. But basically Klinton got a BJ from a fat slut and it it killed it. Seriously.. :greg:

But I don't disagree with a requirement for auto insurance. Driving is a privilege, not a right.

The DOI is the underpinning for the constitution... read up...

Here's the link in it's entirety
http://www.americanwriters.org/works/declaration.asp

Declaration of Independence was approved by the Continental Congress on July 4, 1776, and outlined the reasons why the colonies were seeking independence from Great Britain. The document was written by Thomas Jefferson at the suggestion of the

Buy the Book
other members of the Continental Congress. He wrote the draft in June of 1776, and his fellow committee members made changes in wording and added additional charges against King George III of England. The document listed the "self-evident truths" and "unalienable rights" of Americans that Thomas Jefferson based on the philosophy of John Locke, and it provided the reasons why the colonies are seeking independence.
The Constitution was written in 1787 and ratified by the 13 states in March of 1789. The Constitution served as the fundamental law of the United States and established the foundation for a republican form of government with three separate branches: the judicial, executive and legislative. The Constitution was influenced by the United States' experience under the Articles of Confederation which was the country's first written constitution. Individual states had been granted too many rights, weakening the federal government. The Constitution strengthened the central government while still maintaining individual liberties. The first ten amendments to the constitution are known as the Bill of Rights, and they became part of the Constitution on December 15, 1791. The Bill of Rights guarantees Americans the rights to freedom of speech, assembly and religion, among others.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

This happens all the time.. ...

And I'd have lunch with him tomorrow

 

[dieslcruisrhead]

Seriously, we should do lunch.. I'll be dropping off my broken ass F'ing welder..