I am about to buy an electric car (BEV)

[TurboMinivan]

Purely from a point of technological fascination, I have occasionally entertained the idea of buying an electric car (formally known as a Battery Electric Vehicle). I had a chance to take a Nissan Leaf on an extended test drive about four years ago, and I walked away thinking I could handle owning that vehicle just fine. While there is no way I would want to spend $30k+ for a new one (nor do I want to lease one), I told myself I might be interested in a used one if the price were right. But that's as far as I ever went with that idea.

For the last thirteen months, I've driven my '97 Metro as a cheap commuter. While I have seen two tanks which averaged 53 mpg, I usually get about 45 mpg in my typical driving. Back when gas had dropped to $2.00/gallon--the lowest it has been throughout my Metro ownership--a dollar of gasoline would take me about 22-23 miles. Now that gasoline has once again topped the $3.00 mark, today that same dollar only takes me 15 miles at best.

As I was thinking about the Metro's cost-per-mile a couple weeks ago, the idea of EV ownership again came to mind. How much would one of those cost me to drive, I wondered for the first time ever. Since it is the only EV I've ever driven, I decided to do the math on a Leaf. I pulled out my most recent utility bill and was surprised to see my cost for electricity is a mere 8.76 cents per kilowatt-hour. According to multiple internet sources, Leaf drivers commonly see 4 miles/kWh during average driving in non-winter months; during the dead of winter, Leaf efficiency can drop to around 3 miles/kWh. This means one dollar of electricity from my wall outlet could take me more than 45 miles in a Leaf during three seasons of the year, and around 34 miles in the dead of winter (assuming no energy loss from charging). Even if I factor in a gross 15% loss in charging efficiency--which is larger than real-world examples from those who have done the math--the Leaf is still significantly more efficient than the Metro was even at $2/gallon... and that's not even factoring in the additional ICE maintenance costs for things like oil, etc that an EV would not require. Wow. Suddenly, I was seriously considering buying an EV.

Naturally, this caused me to spend hours researching older (ie, affordable used) EVs. I remembered Car and Driver's six-car comparison from 2014, so I of course began by re-reading that a few times. Right away, this made me realize I wanted one with a 6.6 kW onboard charger. After a lot more reading and pondering, all my research brought me back to where I started: the Nissan Leaf. It really seems to be the best choice for what I want in an EV, and I felt really good about the idea of owning one and driving it every day. With that, I put the Metro up for sale.

After a couple weeks and contact from half a dozen would-be buyers, someone finally came by on Wednesday and took possession of the little thing. Now I am in full-tilt shopping mode, constantly scanning online ads to narrow down my choices. Tonight I am hoping to go drive a couple and see if I can find the one for me. We'll see what happens.

 

[Spork]

I've rode in a few leafs, the newer have much better range than they used to so be aware of that. Took a coworkers 2018 for a spin and it was a fun econobox. I think he said he's up about 160 miles per charge vs the older version that got about 100 per charge. I used to commute about 80 miles a day so the older was too close to Max range for me. I'd buy one if you can make the range work for your commute.

 

[pELYgroso]

Just curious, about how much will the leaf cost you in addition to the money you got out of the Metro? How long will the savings in "fuel economy" take to make up the difference in price of the Leaf?

 

[Unimog]

I've been part way down the road of investigation you are on. You have likely ran into it, but during that investigation, I do remember there were early years of Leafs where the battery capacity degraded rapidly, like 20-30% in the first year, leaving them with a one-year old vehicle that could not even be used to drive to work and back. I've often thought of building my own electric vehicle, but my problem is living in Tooele county, if I don't have a vehicle that I can drive to SLC and back (minimum 50 miles) reliably, it is worthless to me.

Interested in your search - this will be enjoyable to follow!

 

[Spork]

One more thought, the Leaf is the fastest depreciating vehicle in recent reports, I was looking at 2-3 year old leafs for $8k when I was exploring options, I just couldn't get past the range issue. I've wondered about the other vehicle manufacturers, I think battery technology has changed significantly in the last couple years and now 200+ miles is more common.

click bait site --> https://www.myev.com/research/comparisons/the-longest-range-electric-vehicles-for-2019/slide-2
summary
1- Tesla model S - 335 Miles
2- Tesla Model 3 - 310 Miles
3- Tesla Model X - 295 Miles
4- Hyundai Kona - 258 Miles
5- Audi Etron - 248 Miles
6- Chevy Bolt EV - 238 Miles
7- Jaguar E-pace - 234 Miles
8- Nissan Leaf E+ - 226 Miles

The first leaf I rode in the owner said he was getting about 90 miles to the charge.

@pELYgroso mentioned something about how long the Fuel savings taking to make up for cost of vehicle and the electric vehicle is kind of interesting, my co-worker that bought the 2018 leaf was commuting from Midway to West Valley, he was charging at work and said maintenance schedule was something like bring the car in once a year and they look it over to make sure batteries are still happy. Just a random guess of $40 a week in fuel x 52 weeks = $2080 a year savings in fuel cost. I think sticker was like $32k but not sure what price was after rebates/gov incentives we'll assume $26k because it makes my math easier he's in about 13 years to pay for it. One thing I've wondered about, does an electric car last 13 years? or does the maintenance of a normal car add up to what you're going to spend maintaining an electric?

 

[Noahfecks]

Not sure the life of batteries in an all electric vehicle. my experience with Hybrids is that you get 8-10 years out of the batteries before they have to be replaced at a cost of$3-4K.

Will you realize savings to pay for the additional cost of an electric vehicle in the 8 years from new before you have to replace the batteries?

I would not count on the cost of electricity to remain low in the future, every fascist running for office plans to raise the cost considerably in the near future.

 

[Caleb]

$0.08/kWh is a great rate. I’m paying $0.12/kWh currently and it goes up to around $0.14 during the summer. If you can charge somewhere that’s not your home it becomes a much better deal for an EV. However, knowing what it takes to maintain a battery system, I’m skeptical on EV long term.

 

[nnnnnate]

The fleeting thought of picking up a used EV on the "cheap" started when I saw that there are chargers in the office garage. I'd charge it at work and run it into the ground. I'm 13 miles one way is all and I'd rather just keep my wifes 2002 camry and start commuting in that when we get her something new. That gets about 30 but my LX470 gets like 12.

 

[4x4_Welder]

My wife wants a Model X. Of course.

At this point I really need to soak $3k into our 2002 Explorer to make it worth $2k, or replace it. It gets such bad mileage that most of the time when we need to make a trip somewhere it's cheaper to rent something. I've been pushing for going electric, since we'd still rent something for long trips, and it would save us from running a 13-14mpg SUV around town.
I've been looking at used stuff, and the reality is that the range is a non issue. I only drive about ten miles a day even running all over town, and I can plug it in at night. But she insists on something that can make SLC or Boise on a single charge.

 

[TurboMinivan]

Just curious, about how much will the leaf cost you in addition to the money you got out of the Metro? How long will the savings in "fuel economy" take to make up the difference in price of the Leaf?

This is certainly a fair question, and I don't mind you asking. I guess I failed to mention this in my original post, but my plan is not to have the fuel savings pay for the Leaf in full. Yes, that was my mindset with the Metro--and that car paid for itself a few times over--but I see the Leaf as a chance to upgrade the quality of my daily driver. With this purchase, I'll upgrade to a car with a lot less structural rust... and much better safety... and a quieter, more comfortable ride... and enough room for some occasional passengers... and perhaps a few more 'luxury' items such as intermittent wipers and power windows. If I can get all that plus cut my operating costs by 2/3 or more, I am willing to spend a little money to do so.

Having said that, I know me. I change my mind a lot. What if I don't like the EV life after I try it? This is why I refuse to lay out big bucks for a new EV. But if I can buy a used one relatively cheaply, I won't lose a ton of money if I decide to sell out of it after a couple years. Indeed, the local selling price for a 2016 Leaf is only a couple grand more than an equivalent 2014 model with an additional 25,000 miles--this seems to support my theory and gives me peace of mind to go ahead with this experiment. On the flip side, if I decide the EV life is one I don't want to abandon, I can still sell out of my Leaf and replace it with a model that has more range... such as a Chevy Bolt, which ought to be much more affordable in a couple years when they come off of lease in great numbers.

Back to the Metro. I only paid $350 for it, primarily because it needed a new throwout bearing. I installed a new clutch kit plus some other maintenance things, and I ended up being in it about $700 after all was said and done. After driving it for a year, I just sold it for $1000. I have other things to do with that money, so I wasn't really 'applying' it toward the EV in a direct sense. Even before it sold, I had initially told myself I was okay paying ~ $7500 for a used EV. Now that I've landed on a Leaf and decided I wanted one a bit newer than I initially thought, I have raised my EV budget to ~ $9000.

I do remember there were early years of Leafs where the battery capacity degraded rapidly, like 20-30% in the first year, leaving them with a one-year old vehicle that could not even be used to drive to work and back.

One dirty little fact of EV ownership: all lithium batteries degrade over time. Anybody with an older cell phone already knows this. However, with careful engineering this degradation can be slowed considerably. How do you accomplish this? Primarily via thermal management, and (to a much smaller extent) via charging/discharging management. Most BEVs have liquid-cooled battery packs, specifically to combat the degradation caused by high heat encountered during (a) operation in areas of hot climate and/or (b) high-power DC rapid charging. Some BEVs--most notably the Chevrolet Volt--go a step further and program the car's onboard charger to (a) only charge the battery to 80% of its total capacity and (b) only allow the battery to drain to 20% of its total capacity. Yes, this means you only ever get to use 60% of the battery's total capacity... but, on the plus side, Chevy Volts with 150,000 miles typically show no battery degradation at all.

A dirty little fact of shopping for a sub-$10,000 used BEV that I have discovered is that there is no such thing as the perfect cheap BEV. Every one of them has one significant drawback. In the case of the Leaf, it is that the battery pack is not liquid cooled. Instead, it is air cooled. Passively air cooled, in fact... which means there are not even any fans, just heat sinks. As a result, the early Leafs were known for seeing their battery degrade if the car was used in a hot climate, such as Phoenix. Nissan quickly caught on, so for 2013 they made some small changes to the battery to improve the situation... and then for the 2015 model year, they completely changed the battery's chemistry to one which was supposed to be much more heat tolerant. My plan is to avoid buying a Leaf which (a) lived in an excessively hot climate or (b) was rapid charged frequently.

Interestingly, every Leaf ever built has a battery condition gauge right on the instrument cluster. Unless you're a trained Leaf specialist, or you hang out in Leaf forums--or you're a member of RME who has spent dozens of hours in serious Leaf research--you are very likely to be completely unaware of this fact. This works in favor of the prospective Leaf shopper, since nearly every online ad has a picture of the cluster to show the car's odometer reading. At a glance, if you see more degradation than you'd like, you know to not bother going to look at that particular car. If the gauge looks promising, then you can go and actually scan the car to get specific details.

For this reason (and others), I have decided to buy a 2015 or 2016 Leaf.

If you can charge somewhere that’s not your home it becomes a much better deal for an EV.

Dude, you just hit on another amazing part of this whole deal. I did not know this until I began researching EV ownership, but there are a huge number of public EV charging points scattered all over the place. But that's only half of it! The best part is, the majority of them are free to use! I have already located a few of them at (or very near) places I frequently visit. Once I own an EV, I could leave my house with only half a charge or perhaps even less. When I arrive at one of these destinations, I can simply plug in and then proceed with my business of shopping, or eating, or whatever. When I return to my car a few hours later, the battery is now topped off. I simply unplug and drive away. How's that for a perk?

 

[TurboMinivan]

I would not count on the cost of electricity to remain low in the future

Of course not, which is why I've already planned out my long game. Once the EV is up and running, why not throw a few solar panels on my roof so I can charge it via the sun? This is difficult to plan right now since I haven't yet seen how driving an EV will alter my electric bill, but my needs are small compared to most so I'm thinking I could get by with a small 'supplementary' system of only 8 or 10 panels. (I admit I need to do a lot more research in this area.)

 

[TurboMinivan]

(In case any of you ever consider buying a used Leaf, I include the following helpful information.)

A couple posts above, I mentioned scanning a Leaf. What is that all about? Well, somebody out there has made a wonderful app for the prospective Leaf owner--and for the owners themselves--called LeafSpy. There is a Lite version which is free to use, and I've got it on my phone. You'll also need a BlueTooth OBD2 scan tool that the app recognizes, and I already had one of those. When I went to check out one of my potential Leaf candidates last night, I just needed to plug in, engage the 'key on' setting, and open the app. It immediately gives you a screen full of vital battery information, as shown here:

The huge number in the lower left corner is the battery's current state of charge (SOC), which should match the readout on the dash. You'll see the odometer reading at the top, and it should also match what is shown on the dash. The most important number, however, is the battery's state of health (SOH)--this figure indicates how much degradation has occurred since the battery was new. In this car's case, the battery is down to 88.5% of its original capacity--that's a bit more loss than I prefer, even allowing for this car's 33,481 miles. Hmm.

From what I read online, a dealership can not only access this same info but can also reset it--this will temporarily put the SOH back to 100% until the computer gradually adjusts it back down to the actual figure. The app also shows the number of Quick Charges and the number of L1/L2 charges, and I believe those are since the last reset... which means this car's settings have not been reset in quite a while, making me feel this readout is accurate.

FYI

 

[Unimog]

Dempsey, with your experience, roughly what are you expecting to pay for a 2015-2016 Leaf in good condition?

 

[TurboMinivan]

Dempsey, with your experience, roughly what are you expecting to pay for a 2015-2016 Leaf in good condition?

Depending on miles and condition, I'm planning to spend $8500-$9500.

 

[nnnnnate]

For the 33k miles on that Leaf what would you expect to see on the SOH? Is that SOH tied closer to miles or age or locale (noting your comments about hotter climates leading to increased degradation...) I guess what range would you call acceptable for this particular vehicle?

 

[rholbrook]

My neighbor has a leaf and it’s a pile of shit. He hates it but mostly because he is down to about a 60 mile range. Nissan told him to pound sand because he is over the warranty by 8 thousand miles. I actually had to tow him home one night when he couldn’t make it home from 106th South to Kaysville. It died between Centerville and Farmington. The dealer told him it was $9K to replace them. I don’t know how much of that is fact on replacement costs but his car has been put in the service of taking his daughter to high school and back. Maybe 600 yards each way. I have buddies and between them all have each Tesla model. My personal favorite is the “S”. That thing is a rocket. Even the cheaper model is fun to drive.

 

[Jesser04]

The Tesla is awesome! My buddy has a P85 and it is one of the fastest cars I’ve ever been in. I would have bought one over the Macan S but the expense of a good home charger steered me away.

 

[TurboMinivan]

Background info: the instrument cluster battery health gauge in the Leaf has 12 segments. The top segment is most important; it does not turn off until the battery is down to 85% of its original capacity. After that, each succeeding light will turn off once another ~ 7% of battery capacity is lost. So a Leaf with all 12 bars lit could have 99% of its original capacity, or 85.5% of it. You need to scan it to find out precisely.

For the 33k miles on that Leaf what would you expect to see on the SOH?

Particularly on 2015-2016 24 kWh models** with the newer battery chemistry, they do seem to be degrading slower than the early models. I have seen a couple for sale with over 60,000 miles that still have all 12 bars lit. I am expecting some degradation, of course--it's a fact of life with lithium ion batteries--but I was hoping to find one of these with ~30k miles that was still in the 92-94% SOH range. Maybe I'm not being realistic? I've only been able to check out a couple cars so far. As my pool of experience grows, perhaps I'll need to re-adjust my thinking.

**: every 2015 Leaf (of all 3 trim levels) has a 24 kWh battery with the new more-heat-resistant chemistry (nicknamed the 'Lizard' battery). For 2016, Nissan introduced a new 30 kWh battery for more driving range; this larger battery was standard on the SV and SL trim levels, while the base S trim continued to use the 24 kWh battery from the year before. However, at some point during the 2016 model year, Nissan changed their mind and made the larger battery standard on the base S model as well--no more 24 kWh models were built. More range is always a good thing, so I ought to try finding a car with the bigger battery--right? Wrong.

For some bizarre reason, the 30 kWh Lizard battery degrades faster than the 24 kWh Lizard battery. Using collective data from 2016 Leaf owners around the globe, by the time the car is two years old the 30 kWh models range has dropped to the same as the 24 kWh models--by that point, the bigger battery's capacity percentage is lower than the smaller battery's percentage (assuming identical miles driven and similar environmental exposure). I don't know what causes this, and there are numerous ideas thrown about online. All I know is, I've decided I definitely do not want to buy a 30 kWh model. I include this info here for any other prospective used Leaf buyers.

Is that SOH tied closer to miles or age or locale (noting your comments about hotter climates leading to increased degradation...)

All three can be factors, of course. As a general rule, I'd theorize that degradation is mostly tied to miles (read: usage) but can then be further influenced by environmental conditions. Age might be a concern depending how the car was treated; for example, did the car repeatedly sit for long periods with a stone dead battery? I'm still learning here.

My neighbor has a leaf and it’s a pile of shit. He hates it but mostly because he is down to about a 60 mile range.

Any idea which exact model year it is? Nissan has changed their Leaf battery warranty over the years. I'm curious to know more about his car and what coverage it had.


Speaking of, against all odds on Saturday night at 6:30pm a guy drove onto our lot in his 2013 Leaf SV. He is looking to trade it in on a new Subaru. Another salesman began helping him, as I was just finishing with another customer. As soon as I saw the car, I began snooping and found out it was a potential trade-in. It has 54k miles on it. Immediately, the sales manager (who knows I am shopping) asks me if I want to buy it. I walked around the car and quickly deduced that (a) the guy bought it used locally, and (b) at one point it was sold at a dealership in Roswell, NM. Hmm. On the plus side, it is my most-desired trim level and it's an acceptable exterior color (though I'm not fond of the light interior). I figure it has been exposed to high heat; combined with the age/miles, I'm thinking I would not be interested in it. Nevertheless, I decide to accompany the salesman as he drives it across the lot to be appraised. This gives me a chance to scan it, and I am surprised to see its battery is still at 79.69% capacity (it has 11 bars lit). Yes, that is definitely less capacity than I was planning to buy... but if I can get this car for a significantly lower price, maybe it would still be worth it?

We were past closing time, so I left while he was still working on his deal. I later heard that they did not wrap everything up, but the deal may be finalized on Monday. Will we actually take the Leaf in on trade? I don't know yet. We'll see.

 

[TurboMinivan]

I guess I ought to fill you all in on... the rest of the story.

We did take that 2013 Leaf in on trade Monday afternoon. I filled the battery via our dealership charger that night, then on Tuesday took it on a long evaluation drive up to NPS and back. Road and weather conditions were less than perfectly favorable for maximum efficiency, but that was fine with me since the whole point was to see what might happen on a typical drive without recharging along the way. I drove 65 miles in all, and the battery was down to 12% when I got back to work. That sounded acceptable, so I bought the car.

I added a partial charge on Wednesday so I could commute back and forth a couple days. By Saturday, the battery was getting low. In anticipation of a longer drive after work that evening, I charged it to full. That night, road and weather conditions were much better than Tuesday. I drove 45 miles, and this time when I got home the battery was only down to 49%. Nice.

I have an electrician neighbor who is willing to assist me in installing the 240v outlet in my garage, but his busy schedule has kept him from being able to help me out. In the mean time, I'll just keep charging the car at work.

 

[RockChucker]

Seems like a good plan to just go ahead and always charge it at work if they'll let you....?