interesting

[James K]

I think this belongs here.....................

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=451625

 

[Herzog]

Definately interesting.

I read a few comments that I agree with. I don't think any events should be moved, shut down, etc... I think what needs to happen is more enforcement. We all just need to come together better as a group and weed out / educate those who are causing problems and puting us under the microscope.

Problem is, even if we do solve those problems, SUWA will find something else about us to ***** about.

 

[James K]

Definately interesting.

I read a few comments that I agree with. I don't think any events should be moved, shut down, etc... I think what needs to happen is more enforcement. We all just need to come together better as a group and weed out / educate those who are causing problems and puting us under the microscope.

Problem is, even if we do solve those problems, SUWA will find something else about us to ***** about.

kinda where my thinking is also.

 

[Rusted]

Doesn't Moab bring in additional LEO's for the Easter party weekend anyways? I think that part of the problem is not enough enforcement of the rules and laws. Just thinking out loud here, but what if the OHV groups gave money to the city/county to bring in even more LEO's for the event.

Quick math, and I am sure I am missing things here. But $40K a year = ~$19 per hour. Pay the guys time and a half and they are making $30 an hour. Leave them for the weekend with some long hours and they get paid around $600. What if the OHV guys paid for half of that, and the county / city paid for the other half. It may be a way to help the city get more help. Or maybe rather than LEO's get some BLM field reps or other groups that can be a presence and a reminder that they are being watched.

In my opinion to know that someone was watching the trail would be a deterrent to do dumb things like drink, or go off trail. If nothing else it makes it easier for other participants to report problems where they may not have an official easily accessible anyways.

All just ideas, may or not be good ones

 

[mbryson]

Definately interesting.

I read a few comments that I agree with. I don't think any events should be moved, shut down, etc... I think what needs to happen is more enforcement. We all just need to come together better as a group and weed out / educate those who are causing problems and puting us under the microscope.

Problem is, even if we do solve those problems, SUWA will find something else about us to ***** about.

I think peer pressure on trails could go a long ways. It could get interesting with 'renegage' groups, but for new land users that stepped out of bounds with a responsible group, it could be VERY effective.

 

[Bone Down]

I don't think that it is the event as much as it is the timing of the event.. seems it goes on at the same time as spring break even if they put it off until after spring breakers they could still call it easter jeep safari...

What i keep hearing from all of the actual 4x4's is that they try not to go unless it is 1-2 weeks before or afterr safari due to all the yahoo's on spring break.

I remember the one and only time that I ever made it out to Yuba and spring breakers got that place shut down after that weekend...

I spent more time helping cops and blm agents than doing anything else went out on the boat once, and spent the rest of the time watching the dumb dumbs for entertainment.

 

[1993yj]

I don't think that it is the event as much as it is the timing of the event.. seems it goes on at the same time as spring break even if they put it off until after spring breakers they could still call it easter jeep safari...

What i keep hearing from all of the actual 4x4's is that they try not to go unless it is 1-2 weeks before or afterr safari due to all the yahoo's on spring break.

I know that this subject has been brought up time and time again, but the timing is not the issue. All of the colleges and universities here in Utah have had their spring breaks weeks before EJS. If you really think that all of the problems come from those high school kids down there on their spring break, then those are some old kids to still be in high school.

Most of those who cause the problems, if it really is so easy to generalize all the "trouble makers" into one category, are more than likely college aged who dont even actually go to college. Over my years of attending EJS I have seen some crazy parties, where I knew most of the people in attendance, none of which were actually enrolled in any university. The parties have definately been cracked down on in the past years. Even Potatoe Salad and Bump Dump are much more toned down, likely due to the presence of Officers now.

If we are saying that the problem is the renegade groups that trash the trails, which if I am correct is one of SUWA's main point (not the parties), then you cant pin that on people just down there for "spring break" either. I have seen high school aged kids in groups with "adults who should know better" where the high schoolers stay on the trails and the "adults" are the ones trying their own new obstacles, or even driving where we now have the "NO ROUTE" signs painted.

I repeat, TIMING IS NOT THE ISSUE. The issue here is the size of the event. EJS is the only time of the year where my entire family, including extended, all attend Moab together. Mainly this is due to everyone having a day or two off of work because of Easter. I dont know about the rest of you, but at work I dont get a spring break that lets me go down to EJS. However I do have a few days off for Easter.

 

[Bone Down]

I know that this subject has been brought up time and time again, but the timing is not the issue. All of the colleges and universities here in Utah have had their spring breaks weeks before EJS. If you really think that all of the problems come from those high school kids down there on their spring break, then those are some old kids to still be in high school.

Most of those who cause the problems, if it really is so easy to generalize all the "trouble makers" into one category, are more than likely college aged who dont even actually go to college. Over my years of attending EJS I have seen some crazy parties, where I knew most of the people in attendance, none of which were actually enrolled in any university. The parties have definately been cracked down on in the past years. Even Potatoe Salad and Bump Dump are much more toned down, likely due to the presence of Officers now.

If we are saying that the problem is the renegade groups that trash the trails, which if I am correct is one of SUWA's main point (not the parties), then you cant pin that on people just down there for "spring break" either. I have seen high school aged kids in groups with "adults who should know better" where the high schoolers stay on the trails and the "adults" are the ones trying their own new obstacles, or even driving where we now have the "NO ROUTE" signs painted.

I repeat, TIMING IS NOT THE ISSUE. The issue here is the size of the event. EJS is the only time of the year where my entire family, including extended, all attend Moab together. Mainly this is due to everyone having a day or two off of work because of Easter. I dont know about the rest of you, but at work I dont get a spring break that lets me go down to EJS. However I do have a few days off for Easter.

I don't know where you are getting that I am targeting 'high schoolers'!?
I am referring to all the 'Spring Breakers' young and old, in college, in universities, and the college age ones not in school are there most likely to hang out with their college buddies and party.

Partying most of the time leads to drinking in excess (you can not deny this), drinking leads to making poor choices, poor choices lead to SUWA ammo.

So yes timing is an issue as SUWA is lumping the spring breakers whom are not active, paying, participents in the EJS, but merely there to enjoy their spring break.

The 20+ thousand spring breakers there to party and hang out are an unfortunate side effect of EJS.

Red Rock can chime in if they would like, thought I read on RME at one time that there are only 3-5 thousand registered particapents of the actual EJS event.

So if you do the math 20+ thousand partiers can only add up to SUWA ammo and a LEO nightmare.

Now I know not all are there to party, they are some there to actually enjoy camping in Moab, maybe not even EJS for that matter, but when the numbers keep growing it is inevitable that some one will get hurt, blaze their own trail, get photographed in the act (by SUWA) and SUWA will use it against those that are responsible and as a tool in their fight to close it all down all the while blaming EJS.

Now I can respect your views on this as well, but if EJS, SUWA, MOAB and all the local schools worked together to adjust the timing of spring break, and ejs we can only hope that the numbers will decline and this will be come less of problem.

I also know for a fact that people even come in from Colorado (Grand Junction) for the sole purpose to party during spring break and attend EJS or they will head to Lake Powell.

My brother in-law is from Grand Junction and when he heard that I was taking my first trip (last nov) to moab the stories started flowing so I think you are sadly mistaken if you do not think the timing of spring break is not an issue.

You do not get spring break off from work, most likely because your employer is not going to give you 5-10 days off for easter, unlike school districts, colleges, and universities.

Hell I have one kid in year round at this moment and he has then next 3.5 weeks off from school, my Junior High School age kids get 5 days off at the same time as easter guess what the schools are calling it?????????????? SPRING BREAK.

To continue on doing nothing and expecting things to change is insane.

Keep doing what you are doing, and you will keep getting what you get; some one told me this once around 10-15 years ago and it is so so true.

 

[Bone Down]

I would also like to add that due to all that I have read since first purchasing my Jeep two years ago that I will most likely not head down to any EJS events until the problems have been controlled or corrected.

I went to Little Sahara once on easter weekend, that was 6-7 years ago, that will not be happening again anytime soon, in fact I ended up making it a day trip and did not bother camping the weekend as orginally planned.

I wish nothing but good for red rock and their hosting of the EJS event every year (hope it continues forever), I know that they put so much effort into this, and must have some amount of anamosity towards those that contribute to the problems.

 

[1993yj]

I didnt mean that you were targetting high schoolers, but if you are blaming the timing of spring break for the EJS problems, high schoolers are the only ones that are on spring break at that time.

 

[Bone Down]

I didnt mean that you were targetting high schoolers, but if you are blaming the timing of spring break for the EJS problems, high schoolers are the only ones that are on spring break at that time.

not true.. it varies greatly depending on the college, university, school district.
Some start spring break on Easter weekend, after easter weekend, or before easter weekend, and EJS is a week long event so there is bound to be a great deal of over lap.

And with Grand Junction not more than 1.5 - 2 hours away it is not just Utah schools you have to consider.

Hey while we are at it, are schools even allowed to call it easter holiday weekend? You can't say school is out for christmas anymore, it is now out of school for holiday.

 

[bobdog]

I bet that just about everyone, that participated in EJS 15 or more years ago, would agree that a smaller EJS was a funner EJS. I know you can't go back but I sure wish it would shrink in size, a lot.

 

[Bone Down]

I bet that just about everyone, that participated in EJS 15 or more years ago, would agree that a smaller EJS was a funner EJS. I know you can't go back but I sure wish it would shrink in size, a lot.

I wish I was into jeeping back then and not bullet bikes, I feel that I have missed out on what was probably a really good thing.

I just do not want to go down now during EJS and just add to the numbers of people attending and I don't feel like it would be all that great of a family experience with all that I continue to read about it.

However; today I was invited by three different people to come down over mother's day weekend, I have to ask the wife if she wants to go or not since it is technically her weekend.

 

[UtahFire]

If you think SUWA will stop trying to close down trails because EJS ends you are kidding yourself. Try making a deal with SUWA that if large events are not allowed, they will go away and see what happens. The fact is, they hate motorized recreation on public lands and will not stop until all their objectives are accomplished.

Take a look at a quote from an email I got from a SUWA representative:

"ORV use should be seen as tobacco smoking is now -- uncouth
and disreputable. If you want to do it, do it in your own space."

"Vandalism (which is what off-road driving is) should not
be part of a local economy."

Bob Brister
Interregional Outreach Coordinator
Southern Utah Wilderness Alliance

 

[waynehartwig]

I bet that just about everyone, that participated in EJS 15 or more years ago, would agree that a smaller EJS was a funner EJS. I know you can't go back but I sure wish it would shrink in size, a lot.

x2
I'll never go because of how many people are down there during this time. I get asked all the time to put up a booth and attend and I have absolutely no interest. I'd love to go, meet the people and vendors that I deal with daily.

That said, I think they should start limiting the number of registrations to 40k (I'm being sarcastic, but serious). Limit the number on the trails, too. It's hard for people to have fun on a trail when there are 200 other people trying to get through it and it's taking literally ALL DAY to do. Even the easier trails, it's not very fun when there are more than 20 or so rigs on it. Yeah, it's fun to BS with others about their rigs and meet lots of people, but do that off the trail at a show or in the McD's parking lot.

 

[Bone Down]

If you think SUWA will stop trying to close down trails because EJS ends you are kidding yourself. Try making a deal with SUWA that if large events are not allowed, they will go away and see what happens. The fact is, they hate motorized recreation on public lands and will not stop until all their objectives are accomplished.

Take a look at a quote from an email I got from a SUWA representative:

"ORV use should be seen as tobacco smoking is now -- uncouth
and disreputable. If you want to do it, do it in your own space."

"Vandalism (which is what off-road driving is) should not
be part of a local economy."

Bob Brister
Interregional Outreach Coordinator
Southern Utah Wilderness Alliance

I do not think SUWA will ever go away... but if all parties did more than point fingers and controlled the number of people actually impacting the environment at one time then some good could come out of it and minimize the negative impact that it has on the actual EJS event.

And my wording may not be well, I am not saying that SUWA and Red Rock or any other group representing EJS should get together and work this out, that will never happen, but if each group worked in the same direction in terms of working out some sort schedule with the neighboring schools to attempt to minimize.

Instead SUWA sues, Red Rock (and others defend), EJS happens --- SUWA sues, Red Rock (and others defend), EJS happens, --- SUWA sues starting to see a pattern?

I know that the two will never play nice, but something needs to be done in some sort of an attempt.

It is all in the numbers, minimize them and you minimize the problem over time, like mentioned earlier, 10-15 years ago it was smaller and more enjoyable, as time continues on more attend, more spectate, more do damage.

To bad BLM and Moab can't do like was done at yuba, you can not longer camp on the blm and private beaches, but you can enjoy it if you make a reservation (in this case pay to play with Red Rock & EJS) for a designated camp site (EJS trail). Discourage the rif raf some how.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

x2
I'll never go because of how many people are down there during this time. I get asked all the time to put up a booth and attend and I have absolutely no interest. I'd love to go, meet the people and vendors that I deal with daily.

That said, I think they should start limiting the number of registrations to 40k (I'm being sarcastic, but serious). Limit the number on the trails, too. It's hard for people to have fun on a trail when there are 200 other people trying to get through it and it's taking literally ALL DAY to do. Even the easier trails, it's not very fun when there are more than 20 or so rigs on it. Yeah, it's fun to BS with others about their rigs and meet lots of people, but do that off the trail at a show or in the McD's parking lot.

The official EJS event is ~1500, compared to the unoffical group that can be 10x that many. EJS only runs ~25-30 rigs per trail per day. Limiting their event will do little to change the issues your citing.

 

[1993yj]

not true.. it varies greatly depending on the college, university, school district.
Some start spring break on Easter weekend, after easter weekend, or before easter weekend, and EJS is a week long event so there is bound to be a great deal of over lap.

And with Grand Junction not more than 1.5 - 2 hours away it is not just Utah schools you have to consider.

Well, I did not do my homework on when the CO schools have their spring breaks, so you may be right. Maybe it still is those damn college students. Anyhow, at least we can now narrow it down and say that it is the CO ones who are causing all of the problems. Kidding.

Really my only point here is that I dont think that timing is the issue to the size of the event. If Jeep Safari were to be moved to the fall and called FJS, the crowds would still come down. Jeep Safari is for many people the only time of year that they even go down to Moab.

And yes, it is big. If you dont like the crowds and prefer to go down a different weekend, that is great. I ususally try to go down a few weeks before myself. And with the way the permit has been issued now, this may be my last year doing EJS, which is sad because so far it has been the only time of year that everyone in my family has been able to get the time off all at the same time (thanks to Easter weekend).

One thing I have come to realize though is that all of the SUWA members are on agreement that Moab needs to be closed, but we as 4-wheelers cant come to common ground on what needs to be done to fix the problem. Unfortunately I think that there are always going to be 4-wheelers down there who dont follow the rules, no matter what age or time of year, they will be around. Hopefully we can all at least follow the rules ourselves and set the example.

One thing we can all agree on is that our trails are in danger of being shut down and that we need to stop this.

 

[TimB]

I bet the ones that love EJS and do it every year outnumber those who hate it at least 2 to 1. My wife loves it - all the different people, the fancy rigs, the excitement...

Don't "NOT" do EJS because you read a bunch of haters on Pirate. You might be one of those who love it. A lot of the people that hate safari are the ego trip types - they are only happy when they are showing off and others are watching. They hate waiting while others do the same obstacle they just showed off on.

The trails can be really slow at obstacles, but you get to see a lot of good and bad equipment and drivers.

I think a lot of people hate all the rules too, but for a large event like this rules are a necessity.

What problems do you think EJS has now that it needs to straiten out anyway? There's nothing new about the crowd issues. The only new thing is how they are attempting to curb some of the damage and conflict... those issues have been around for at least as long as EJS has been a week long event, BLM and the club are just working on a new way of dealing with the issues.

If you are a paying participant, I bet the changes will be a improvement for your experience. If you are non-paying, just go another week and avoid the conflict.

 

[Bone Down]

Well, I did not do my homework on when the CO schools have their spring breaks, so you may be right. Maybe it still is those damn college students. Anyhow, at least we can now narrow it down and say that it is the CO ones who are causing all of the problems. Kidding.

Really my only point here is that I dont think that timing is the issue to the size of the event. If Jeep Safari were to be moved to the fall and called FJS, the crowds would still come down. Jeep Safari is for many people the only time of year that they even go down to Moab.

And yes, it is big. If you dont like the crowds and prefer to go down a different weekend, that is great. I ususally try to go down a few weeks before myself. And with the way the permit has been issued now, this may be my last year doing EJS, which is sad because so far it has been the only time of year that everyone in my family has been able to get the time off all at the same time (thanks to Easter weekend).

One thing I have come to realize though is that all of the SUWA members are on agreement that Moab needs to be closed, but we as 4-wheelers cant come to common ground on what needs to be done to fix the problem. Unfortunately I think that there are always going to be 4-wheelers down there who dont follow the rules, no matter what age or time of year, they will be around. Hopefully we can all at least follow the rules ourselves and set the example.

One thing we can all agree on is that our trails are in danger of being shut down and that we need to stop this.

To add to what you have said in other posts, it is not just spring breakers that cause some of the problems.

My first time ever to visit Moab was the first weekend in Nov. 2005, second day there, I was taken on the poison spider, dbl gold trails.
There was a group of people (all definetly not college age) most of them in rental jeeps (so I am not sure where they were from), there were some parts of the trail that were marked in a manner that there was no question that you were not suppose to be on that section.

This group kept slowing us down due to them wanting to film themselves doing every obsticle on the trails including the ones marked 'NO' on the rocks.

My first time down and I was just shaking my head in shame even though I did not even know who this group of people were.

I can't even wait until the next time I get to go to Moab, but it will not be during large events like EJS as I am not a big fan of the crowds anymore.