scoutabout
None
It's in "Land Use", so not many people come here. A post about someone's hairy butt in "Chit-Chat" might get 1,000+ views.
Is the motorized community winning the access battle?
- Thread starter scoutabout
- Start date
It's in "Land Use", so not many people come here. A post about someone's hairy butt in "Chit-Chat" might get 1,000+ views.
IntrepidXJ
Registered User
- Location
- Grand Junction, CO
it's funny......Land Use is about the only forum I come here for. But I know that I am in the minority.......and that's why we are losing trails all over the place
Tacoma
Et incurventur ante non
- Location
- far enough away
It can be. People CAN make the right choices.
Now whether they will or not??? Another story entirely.
Now whether they will or not??? Another story entirely.
Not in my opinion. Eventually we will lose nearly all access, especially rock crawling. I consider my donations to USA-ALL and BlueRibbon to be more about extending the inevitable.
And I have got to say that I think it is total bullshit to think that the reason trails are being closed is because some guy takes a bypass.
It does not help and is irresponsible, but that is only low hanging fruit to the greenies
Do you think that the SUWA and sierra nazis just want everyone to "stay on the trails" hell no, they don't want there to be trails. There are no "right" choices in their eyes, not when it comes to off-road. You, me and everyone on this board are as much the enemy as the dumbass who tries a trail he is not capable of and takes bypasses.
They are better funded and there are too many people on the coasts who LOVE the idea of roadless, "protected", wilderness in our back yard.
my opinion...
And I have got to say that I think it is total bullshit to think that the reason trails are being closed is because some guy takes a bypass.
It does not help and is irresponsible, but that is only low hanging fruit to the greeniesDo you think that the SUWA and sierra nazis just want everyone to "stay on the trails" hell no, they don't want there to be trails. There are no "right" choices in their eyes, not when it comes to off-road. You, me and everyone on this board are as much the enemy as the dumbass who tries a trail he is not capable of and takes bypasses.
They are better funded and there are too many people on the coasts who LOVE the idea of roadless, "protected", wilderness in our back yard.
my opinion...
Last edited:
- Location
- Bountiful, land of rocks
Not in my opinion. Eventually we will lose nearly all access, especially rock crawling. I consider my donations to USA-ALL and BlueRibbon to be more about extending the inevitable.
And I have got to say that I think it is total bullshit to think that the reason trails are being closed is because some guy takes a bypass.
Do you think that the SUWA and sierra nazis just want everyone to "stay on the trails" hell no, they don't want there to be trails. There are no "right" choices in their eyes, not when it comes to off-road. You, me and everyone on this board are as much the enemy as the dumbass who tries a trail he is not capable of and takes bypasses.
They are better funded and there are too many people on the coasts who LOVE the idea of roadless, "protected", wilderness in our back yard.
my opinion...
Without more people concerned and getting involved, I think you are totally right. The 'green' is a minority, though and have been very effective at spreading their clear-cutting, massive resource damage caused by anything but foot traffic views. If we just get the motorcycle, snowmobile and offroad industries to unite and organize and fund (similar to what the greens have been able to do), I think something could be done. Until that happens, I don't see a lot of real change.
Tacoma
Et incurventur ante non
- Location
- far enough away
I was recently encouraged by Tooele's turnout at the meeting. A majority of the people there were concerned with keeping access open for motorized vehicles.
It's the SILENT majority that hurts access, the people who don't do anything at all. You're right about environazi's wanting NO trails, some of that philosophy is downright scary, but we all need to do our part and at least make our voices heard.
It's the SILENT majority that hurts access, the people who don't do anything at all. You're right about environazi's wanting NO trails, some of that philosophy is downright scary, but we all need to do our part and at least make our voices heard.
The "greenie" population is not that large, and has the benefit of preying off of being "politically correct". When they come up with some **** like "what will be left for our children", no one has any response except for the "oh well, we dont damage the enviroment, we stay on the trails". How about a proper response of "**** off, the trails were here when we started and they will be here when we are gone." We arent that important and nature will repair itself.
The real issue, and this just my humble opinion, is the approach that the offroad community has been taking for years, of working with the BLM and the FS to try and make things better. When it all comes down to it, they close the roads anyway, and usually the same trails that the 4wd community helped repair or clean up. Its ridiculous, thats what they get paid to do.
Ive said this before, but I think a new approach is called for, SUWA, and the other groups didn get big by making friends with anyone, they held protests, got arrested, broke the laws, and got news time for it, thats why they get $$, people are aware of who they are and what they do. They became a force to be reckoned with that would not go away.
Meanwhile, back in the 4wd community, we are still trying to play nice and make friends with the very entities that are destroying our access.
And then we cut our own throats by spotlighting a few bad eggs, and blaming it all on them, and making threats on the very same people that could support the cause, I mean, I'll put a tire on their hood? Lets reinforce the redneck stereotype a little more....
The greenies never attack their own... that should be a lesson in itself.
I think Steve is aware of my take on this. If a road is gated, remove the gate, rely on the RS-2477. Take back what you pay taxes on, these are your lands and should be free access for all. Will there be some assholes that will take advantage of this and drive off a trail? Yes. Deal with it. The alternative is that access is lost for all.
The biggest thing to hit the news for the 4wd community in a while is one guy that went and took down a gate, and the BLM didnt even show up.(san rafael)
It comes down to this, the BLM and the FS enforce laws set by congress and senate bills. These bills are written when a legislator sees that there is a problem. People start protesting, taking down gates, and taking back what is rightfully thiers and the legislators will take notice and laws will change.
The only reason, in my mind, that the greenies are so successful is that they are dedicated to the cause, they show up to rallies and meetings, and define action items and carry them out instead of just talking about them. Just my .02.
- Location
- Bountiful, land of rocks
Tacoma
Et incurventur ante non
- Location
- far enough away
So it's ok to be 'redneck' about taking down gates but not about getting someone to understand that they're a problem. Ok!
heheh somewhere in the middle is probably more like it. Not that I'm necessarily against either option.
heheh somewhere in the middle is probably more like it. Not that I'm necessarily against either option.
- Location
- Sandy, Ut
I wish it were as simple as "tearing down some gates"... sadly RS2477 means ABSOLUTELY nothing without $$$$ to back it up in court. Take for example Strike Ravine in Moab, a 100% RS2477 valid trail, with TONS of history, county support, etc. They had a ton of 4x4 involvement, etc... and it still took to the tune of $20k to fight the greenies to maintain its legality (thanks to RR4W btw , without their money it would be gone).
If you think you can save a trail by getting a couple guys to illegally run it... There are already thousands in the state who have recieved tickets on these trails (myself included). Squeeky wheel gets the cheese... but it takes alot of involvement by our apathetic community to make noise louder than SUWA et all.
Thats just one aspect of it...
RS2477 means NOTHING in most of Utahs Forest Service Districts, I don't know the specifics (creation dates) of all of them, but take Uinta National Forest (AF & Provo Canyon) for example. Unless the 4x4 road existed prior to 1906 (or 1910?), they have zero legal responsibility under RS2477 to maintain any access. Guess how many of AF Canyons trails were passable by a 4x4 in 1910... In addition it is their responsibility to "manage" a healthy forest... many trails are shut down because of abuse that is "promoted" by use & overuse. Do I agree with it, nope.. but that is why we (U4WDA for example) spend alot of our effort working WITH them... as it has proven rather fruitless to work against them.
There are cases where this isn't true, county access roads, private property access, state 10 yr statute, etc... and other cases where the FS fails to comply with their own policies and shuts trails (single track trail in AF that Usa-All sucsessfully reopened to motorized use). But it still takes money and more importantly alot of effort, something we have a shortage of.
There have been ZERO legit trails shut down in AFC in the last couple years... and there are actually potential new ones. 5MP is much the same, we actually stand to gain ground in those two areas. Why just those two? Because that is where many of us have chosen to spend out efforts on "pet projects"... We have some folks in Moab, Price, Kanab, St George, Delta, Logan, etc doing much the same.... all those areas are maintaining if not adding trails to some degree, not bad at all considering the opposition we receive. If we had more help across the state... we could do that much more. There are so many "uncovered" areas that need constant monitoring.
As for abuse = trail closures. I can attest it can & does... not only that it also limits the amount of "new" trails that are potentially opened. Steve J. and I can both attest to a particular trail that the FS considered opening "if it wouldn't turn into another Forest Lake"... verbatim. I'd be more then happy to discuss the specifics another time/place.
As for rallies, public hearings, "pirating" a RS2477 legit trail, I'm all for it... but we lack the "dedicated" support.
So, until we have either plenty of $$$ or plenty of member support... we do our best on our limited resources. Usa-All is much the same, dollar for dollar they waste SUWA... can you imagine what they could save if they had SUWAs donor money??
I hear about trails that have "closed" by our terms "illegally". Where? Every case I can think of has been very debated and contested, most in court. The only ones I can think of that have not are Charlies Trail (though many still run it and it could appear as a legit trail on the new travel plan)... and what else???
Cardiff Fork, Mineral Fork, Pittsburg, etc - All FS trails, they have ZERO legal responsibility to keep them open to any of us. Sad, but true. And Cardiff, Pits, Earl-Eagle, etc are private property matters also... so you would have to drum up alot of public support to not only fight the Forest Service, Save Our Canyons, etc... but also a private property owner too. Complex situation to say the least.
, without their money it would be gone).If you think you can save a trail by getting a couple guys to illegally run it... There are already thousands in the state who have recieved tickets on these trails (myself included). Squeeky wheel gets the cheese... but it takes alot of involvement by our apathetic community to make noise louder than SUWA et all.
Thats just one aspect of it...
RS2477 means NOTHING in most of Utahs Forest Service Districts, I don't know the specifics (creation dates) of all of them, but take Uinta National Forest (AF & Provo Canyon) for example. Unless the 4x4 road existed prior to 1906 (or 1910?), they have zero legal responsibility under RS2477 to maintain any access. Guess how many of AF Canyons trails were passable by a 4x4 in 1910... In addition it is their responsibility to "manage" a healthy forest... many trails are shut down because of abuse that is "promoted" by use & overuse. Do I agree with it, nope.. but that is why we (U4WDA for example) spend alot of our effort working WITH them... as it has proven rather fruitless to work against them.
There are cases where this isn't true, county access roads, private property access, state 10 yr statute, etc... and other cases where the FS fails to comply with their own policies and shuts trails (single track trail in AF that Usa-All sucsessfully reopened to motorized use). But it still takes money and more importantly alot of effort, something we have a shortage of.
There have been ZERO legit trails shut down in AFC in the last couple years... and there are actually potential new ones. 5MP is much the same, we actually stand to gain ground in those two areas. Why just those two? Because that is where many of us have chosen to spend out efforts on "pet projects"... We have some folks in Moab, Price, Kanab, St George, Delta, Logan, etc doing much the same.... all those areas are maintaining if not adding trails to some degree, not bad at all considering the opposition we receive. If we had more help across the state... we could do that much more. There are so many "uncovered" areas that need constant monitoring.
As for abuse = trail closures. I can attest it can & does... not only that it also limits the amount of "new" trails that are potentially opened. Steve J. and I can both attest to a particular trail that the FS considered opening "if it wouldn't turn into another Forest Lake"... verbatim. I'd be more then happy to discuss the specifics another time/place.
As for rallies, public hearings, "pirating" a RS2477 legit trail, I'm all for it... but we lack the "dedicated" support.
So, until we have either plenty of $$$ or plenty of member support... we do our best on our limited resources. Usa-All is much the same, dollar for dollar they waste SUWA... can you imagine what they could save if they had SUWAs donor money??
I hear about trails that have "closed" by our terms "illegally". Where? Every case I can think of has been very debated and contested, most in court. The only ones I can think of that have not are Charlies Trail (though many still run it and it could appear as a legit trail on the new travel plan)... and what else???
Cardiff Fork, Mineral Fork, Pittsburg, etc - All FS trails, they have ZERO legal responsibility to keep them open to any of us. Sad, but true. And Cardiff, Pits, Earl-Eagle, etc are private property matters also... so you would have to drum up alot of public support to not only fight the Forest Service, Save Our Canyons, etc... but also a private property owner too. Complex situation to say the least.
Last edited:
Tacoma
Et incurventur ante non
- Location
- far enough away
Well there's the nutshell if I ever saw it!!
scoutabout
None
Yes, it's dire. But there's hope! If we CAN get the $$$$ to back us up, we CAN start challenging some closures. Also, we have a GREAT chance to add some trails in Tooele County. If enough people will get involved (and stay involved), we can start winning a little at a time.
I've been in Texas for the last 2 weeks on a working vacation. I've talked to a few j**pers I've run into around town, and listened to them talk about the awesome offroad parks they have. Yeah, they have to drive 2 hours from Dallas, and it only has a few trails, but it's ALL they've got.
We're so lucky in Utah! Don't let apathy kill our hobby/sport! Get involved today, don't wait until something is in danger of being closed.
Join U4WDA and USA-ALL!
http://www.u4wda.org
http://www.usaall.org
I've been in Texas for the last 2 weeks on a working vacation. I've talked to a few j**pers I've run into around town, and listened to them talk about the awesome offroad parks they have. Yeah, they have to drive 2 hours from Dallas, and it only has a few trails, but it's ALL they've got.
We're so lucky in Utah! Don't let apathy kill our hobby/sport! Get involved today, don't wait until something is in danger of being closed.
Join U4WDA and USA-ALL!
http://www.u4wda.org
http://www.usaall.org
There are a ton of trails in the Ophir region, including the Dry Canyon route to Jacob city, Echo Canyon, Saratoga Springs area, .. and AF canyon... that havent been disputed or even contested. Dont get me wrong, Im not saying to not contribute, and Im not associating myself with any 4wd groups- soley cause I dont want to cause them problems, but I figure if I break enough gates, get enough tickets... and bog up the court system with appeals and such, eventually I can get some notice... especially at the rally against the forest service in march, you can guarantee I'll open my mouth in front of any mic or camera that comes up. If activism is the only thing that makes the changes then Im more than willing to break some laws to change em.
Kiel
Formerly WJ ZUK
Goat on the board is from texas also and he is always telling me how cool it is here. There they have to drive 200-300 miles and pay 60-80 bucks a vehcile to wheel a day, sounds like we might just have it a little better if we can keep it.