Meeting the audiance. General Land Use Chat

[scoutabout]

You're right about that... I just think the relative lack of membership for any given group definitely makes things harder on those that ARE members. There's a certain critical mass that makes things easier to achieve any given task, and so far, there is no user group out there that's even close, and it's a shame.

This could be a topic of it's own thread!

The formula is that results equal support. I'll leave it at that.

Thus the content of this thread! Not everyone is able or willing to donate into an org where they may or may not see results. But every user should be able and willing to involve themselves in the tangible actions described here that can have an immediate impact and immediate gratification.

I still forward the idea that when irresponsible use is eliminated and OHV users are 100% involved in the management process, results from the big orgs and results from lobbying will be that much easier to attain.

 

[anderson750]

I still forward the idea that when irresponsible use is eliminated and OHV users are 100% involved in the management process, results from the big orgs and results from lobbying will be that much easier to attain.

IMO, irresponsible use is directly related to education. Education is related to involvment. Involvment is related to clubs.


How do we get more people involved with clubs? Clubs that have the leadership and interest to give back to the sport in more than getting together socially. Groups like RR4W are models for the full-size community.

 

[anderson750]

This could be another topic of discussion, but along with what I posted above with getting people involved in clubs, why don't people get more involved with the discussion here. There is a core group of people who chime in on the land use threads and these are the people who I believe are in the trenches. Is it disinterest, apathy, lack of knowledge, etc?

 

[scoutabout]

IMO, irresponsible use is directly related to education. Education is related to involvment. Involvment is related to clubs.

I'd totally agree.

How do we get more people involved with clubs? Clubs that have the leadership and interest to give back to the sport in more than getting together socially. Groups like RR4W are models for the full-size community.

The sell is: come for the social scene, stay for the meat and potatoes. Clubs have to attract users based on the fun factor first and then push the land use ethics as part of the social aspect of the club. It takes leaders and it takes culture to make it work. There are a lot of good examples where it's being done right including RR4W as you've mentioned.

This could be another topic of discussion, but along with what I posted above with getting people involved in clubs, why don't people get more involved with the discussion here. There is a core group of people who chime in on the land use threads and these are the people who I believe are in the trenches. Is it disinterest, apathy, lack of knowledge, etc?

I think it's lack of knowledge. There's a huge learning curve to becoming informed enough to feel comfortable commenting on many of these issues.

How do we change that? Back to the chain which leads us to effective education.

If we're fighting a battle and we have 5 experienced generals but no troops, shouldn't the priority of those 5 generals be to train troops before rushing head first into battle and then sending messages to the surrounding villages to come join the slaughter? A metaphor for why I think education (users, public, and land managers) is a priority over lobbying, given our current capacity.

 

[anderson750]

The sell is: come for the social scene, stay for the meat and potatoes. Clubs have to attract users based on the fun factor first and then push the land use ethics as part of the social aspect of the club. It takes leaders and it takes culture to make it work. There are a lot of good examples where it's being done right including RR4W as you've mentioned.

I think we are all on the same page here. How do we get some more clubs to put some emphasis on this and not just the social factor. There may be more of this than I am aware of, but if I use motorcycle and atv clubs as a comparison.... this is still a small percentage of clubs.

If we're fighting a battle and we have 5 experienced generals but no troops, shouldn't the priority of those 5 generals be to train troops before rushing head first into battle and then sending messages to the surrounding villages to come join the slaughter? A metaphor for why I think education (users, public, and land managers) is a priority over lobbying, given our current capacity.

Good analogy. I have always looked at it as pulling a cart. The more people you have helping pull it, the easier the work is. Everyone can find where they fit into the scenario. Are you a general leading and training the troops? Are you a soldier helping fight the battle and do the work? Are you a "politician" working on legal aspects. I think they are all important and people need to work with their strengths. I don't think you ignore lobbying or working the political side of things if you have people who can do it.

I think I can lead and train (educate) people. I can help with on the ground projects and I can "lobby" with my connections both localy and nationaly. Being a business owner and having employees, you are always looking at strengths and weaknesses of employees. You always get to where you want to go much quicker by using peoples strenghts. Don't ignore the weaknesses, work on making them stronger.

 

[SAMI]

Interesting metephor Steve.

I was recently at an OHV event where there were some land use oriented booths set up. One thing that I noticed is that they were all 90% into selling their shirts and slogans and pins and other knick knacks... The front most table showed little to no literature on trail ettequitte, or anything that could be considered "educational" from a 'keeping lands open' stand point. I'm certainly not knocking anyone, as the orgs out there use the money for good things..

But there is an obvious lack of education as a whole. I agree that the education is best handled on a club level. The club is and should be the 'social network' that educates, inspires, and spawns new blood through leadership and example. As stated before, RR4W, and Friends for Moab Wheeling are prime examples of what clubs are capable of. They are the locals who can work with land managers, who know local businesses that can help donate supplies for projects, etc etc...

So possibly the club level needs to be zeroed in on? You could hit letter writing, and project planning with one stone in a well organized club. The more active members, the more influence to other OHV users, which means more education to users, which means bigger armies for the 5 generals..

-Jason

 

[Bear T]

I agree that there is a total lack of education. I know for me and my club, we try to do as much as possible without getting burned out, but one of our biggest draw backs is that even our leaders are not educated enough to lead to our fullest potential. Having an informed group, that can help the leaders of the club become more educated creates a down flow of information. I personally don't have the time or experience to be as well educated or involved at a higher level such as Kurt, Steve, or Paul. But I try to pry for information and guidance to be able to better help my club be prepared to make a difference in the land use battle.

I would like to see, if possible, a small land use organization, that is a group of "generals". No workers, no trying to increase memberships, nothing more than well educated land use generals that are available to work with individual clubs on organizing land use work, be it trail cleanup projects or letter writing parties.
The organizations size and income would be souly based on the clubs that join said organization.

Just a thought.

 

[Tacoma]

I still think that comes down to apathy-- whether that can be overcome with education, I don't know. However, since the twin goals of increasing education and decreasing apathy can be be met with identical methods I think it's worth a shot.

Would be great to see some more input here besides us, we are definitely preaching to the choir here LOL

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...I would like to see, if possible, a small land use organization, that is a group of "generals". No workers, no trying to increase memberships, nothing more than well educated land use generals that are available to work with individual clubs on organizing land use work, be it trail cleanup projects or letter writing parties.
The organizations size and income would be souly based on the clubs that join said organization.

Just a thought.

Your not the only one thinking just that. There are so many issues in front of us right now, comment periods for the GESNM with zero prep done, and 5 more BLM RMP's in the coming future. Who knows how many forest districts are reworking their management plans. Then comes the new groups size and SRP requirements from the BLM, something every club needs to get familiar with before their next event lands them a hefty BLM fine for lack of permit.

 

[1993yj]

I agree with the fact of education being the biggest factor in responsible land use. However, it seems to me that the majority of those who are members of clubs are not the ones mis-using the trails and environment. I know that this goes off from Kurt's original topic, but I don't think that trying to increase membership in clubs is the answer. I belong to U4WDA, but do not do any organized rides with them. Within my immediate family there are 4 rigs, and if you add in the usual friends and extended family, we easily average 6-10 rigs on any run we do. I think that many people see clubs as I do: a way to find people to wheel with. If people already have people to wheel with, they are probably not interested in joining a club or organization. Unfortunately this also means that they are missing out on necessary education and cleanup projects, but this is a reality. I hope this doesn't go too far off topic for you Kurt, but as your poll shows, it seems that most of the people on this forum (and probably anyone that is active on any forum) are willing to do whatever they can to help out the sport. I wish I knew the answer to educating the entire public so that our sport can grow in a responsible fashion, rather than always having to look at options of controlling issues and saving trails.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Not off topic Brandon, a tangent but a great one at that. I fully agree with you, the majority of those in a club and those on forums such as RME, are already pretty educated in regards to proper land use etiquette, and if not they have a resource to ask. Its gaining the attention of those tangent users (not that that is a bad thing at all) and getting them involved in a worthwhile organization that is the task we are yet to conquer. Thanks for the response, all perspectives are appreciated

 

[1993yj]

I think there are two BIG challenges in getting new members for clubs (and I am sure many more).

1. Getting the word out to the general public that these clubs exist and what the benfits are for joining.

2. Many people feel like clubs are just trying to build membership to get money.

These are also observations from someone who is not much involved in clubs.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...2. Many people feel like clubs are just trying to build membership to get money...

I've realized this more and more as I've stepped out of the mainstream organized groups. It seems they have become so dependent on x amount of income to fund current projects that education, stewardship and land use work have taken a distant back seat with most. Its a hard line to walk. Clubs want to be "fun" and yet being "effective" needs to be worked in at a ratio that doesn't push others out.

 

[scoutabout]

I think that many people see clubs as I do: a way to find people to wheel with.

That's a good point. I don't know what the split would be, but there's definitely a segment of the community that will shy away from organized clubs for one reason or another. So they're in the community, but they're not interested in finding a club. But good clubs can still have an impact on those people as well. Through informational/educational projects, peer enforcement, contact through point of sale at local retailers, and other community activism.

Still, there are those members of the community who won't be exposed (enough) to proper land use ethics. That's where having an organization as alluded to by CrawlinBear and Cruiseroutfit has a small advantage. Such an organization isn't looking for money or members, just audience. There's no chance to suspect an ulterior motive because there's no "want" for anything except a few minutes of listening and possibly your email address.

But the best place to communicate with wheelers is where they are: on the trail. As Anderson mentions, becoming a center of influence among other users can have a huge impact.

Where and how to communicate is established, but the "what" still has a few things to be worked out if we're going to be able to save motorized recreation.

 

[anderson750]

I think there are two BIG challenges in getting new members for clubs (and I am sure many more).

1. Getting the word out to the general public that these clubs exist and what the benfits are for joining.

2. Many people feel like clubs are just trying to build membership to get money.

These are also observations from someone who is not much involved in clubs.

Culture has been talked about previously and I believe this is a big part of it. I have to admit that I have been a member of the King Crawlers, but not an active one in the sense of attending meetings or going on runs etc. I am most active in the Sage Riders M/c and I must tell you that we have a great culture there and in the last 2 years we have had a great influx of members. Some have become involved in access, some for racing, some for social and some for all 3.

So when you look at clubs like RR4W you probably can find an amazing culture. It takes the right people in the right positions to make this happen. It also takes new blood. You eventually get burned out if you are the one leading the wagon train all the time. What makes people want to step up to that leadership.....Culture.

One more thought as individuals, is the need to be a center of influence. On the trail, at meetings, socializing with other users....take the opportunity and educate the importance of being involved, staying on trails and help them understand the attack our sport is under. I have the knowledge and desire I do for access because of somebody who was a center of influence to me. I think that everyone who has commented in this thread has had some great input and are key people to being centers of influence for others.

This whole thing is to big for as small of a group we have discussing this topic here. You need people in all the regions. I feel Moab has stayed open as long as it has since they focus on their region. If they were running around chasing things all over the state, they would have lost focus and maybe even felt overwhelmed and become burned out. They have maintained dead eye focus on their issues and gathered outside support when they need it.

WE NEED MORE GENERALS.