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Moab bans plastic bags

Spork

Spork

Tin Foil Hat Equipped
Location
Saratoga Springs, UT
Herzog said:
Hey, it's in chit-chat for a reason. :D

I'm the resident super conspiracy tin-foil hat guy (I'm claiming the title from @Spork). Only difference is, my conspiracies are true. :D:thinking: (ok... maybe only most of them)
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I've been slipping lately. The whole island of garbage has always been suspect to me. I suspect it's one of those things to draw attention vs a real thing. I question the desire to do anything about it if it is a real thing, ocean currents should make it go to land on occasion and I don't recall any countries claiming something the size of Texas is parked off the beach. Unfortunately in the current environmental movement anything burned is bad, it doesn't matter where it's burned so what do you do with millions of pounds of garbage other than ignore it.
 
mesha

mesha

By endurance we conquer
Location
A.F.
Noahfecks said:
I take serious issue with this claim. I can find the claim everywhere but cannot find a scientific source regarding how the author arrived at this conclusion. Clearly the assumption behind the numbers is that those 22 gallons are lost forever, which doesn't jive with proven water cycle science. Also it doesn't account for reuse whereby the water inputs that go into that manufacturing calculation obviously assume a new 22 gallons are used for each pound produced.

Please, wether you agree or disagree with the point a statistic makes, check the references and think for yourself.

Lies, damn lies, and statistics
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I haven't looked deeply into the claim of 22 gallons per pound of plastic. I was mostly trying to point out that if we are worried about the water used to wash a straw we should also worry about the amount of water used to make plastic straws. I appreciate you calling my out for not backing up my claim, I didn't feel the need since I wasn't trying to prove the claim of 22 gallons. I tell my students each and every day they need to back up their claims. You dispute the claim because you can't find the reference, not sure that is science either.

I feel like I have a pretty good handle on water cycle science and never claimed the water could not be reused in anyway. I spend a lot of time researching, learning, discussing, and teaching ecology based science. While it is not my specialty, I feel confident that I put a lot more time and energy into this topic than the average person.

Hopefully someday I will learn to check science references and learn to think for myself.
 
Homefryy

Homefryy

Active Member
Location
Salt Lake City
My understanding of the garbage patch is that it is very misrepresented. They always show pictures of something like the above video with the scuba diver jumping in with large chunks of plastic but the vast majority of it is actually tiny bits of plastic suspended in the water that you can't even really see. While it isn't as visually as crazy as they make it out to be its the tiny bits of plastic that get eaten by the fish and cause problems for them.

Here is a quote from the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Association.
See the full article here https://response.restoration.noaa.g...at-pacific-garbage-patch-science-vs-myth.html
  1. There is no "garbage patch," a name which conjures images of a floating landfill in the middle of the ocean, with miles of bobbing plastic bottles and rogue yogurt cups. Morishige explains this misnomer:
While it's true that these areas have a higher concentration of plastic than other parts of the ocean, much of the debris found in these areas are small bits of plastic (microplastics) that are suspended throughout the water column. A comparison I like to use is that the debris is more like flecks of pepper floating throughout a bowl of soup, rather than a skim of fat that accumulates (or sits) on the surface.​
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Houndoc

Houndoc

Registered User
Location
Grantsville
Since most of us here enjoy nature and outdoor activities, we should be supportive of reasonable environmental protections. While that should mostly come from personal choices, we know that doesn't always work (think those who drive off trail around Moab.)

As for the specific issue of plastic bags, between cleaning my cats' litter box and cleaning up after my dog on walks (until yesterday, hopefully will have need again not too far down the road), most of the plastic bags I get from the store are reused and if I didn't get them would have to buy bags anyway.
 
Spork

Spork

Tin Foil Hat Equipped
Location
Saratoga Springs, UT
Stephen said:
It's "lies, damned lies, and statistics" if we're going to start arguing about semantics here. Probably should understand the context in which Disraeli made that comment too.
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Help me out, tried using the google machine and other than Twain nobody shows where Disraeli came up with it.

wiki --> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damned_lies,_and_statistics
The phrase was popularised in the United States by Mark Twain (among others), who attributed it to the British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." However, the phrase is not found in any of Disraeli's works and the earliest known appearances were years after his death. Several other people have been listed as originators of the quote, and it is often erroneously attributed to Twain himself.[1]
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Stephen

Stephen

Who Dares Wins
Moderator
Location
Never Far From Nowhere
Spork said:
Help me out, tried using the google machine and other than Twain nobody shows where Disraeli came up with it.

wiki --> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damned_lies,_and_statistics
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I was meaning it as a joke, but I guess without a smiley face sarcasm is lost. *sigh*

I remember reading about it being his reaction to the general election in 1874 where it was reported that the Liberals, led by Gladstone, had defeated the Conservatives. But I don't have the textbook from my Modern British History class in front of me and I cannot provide the accurate citation; so that likely makes it false.
 
Noahfecks

Noahfecks

El Destructo!
Location
Glenwoody Springs, CO
mesha said:
I haven't looked deeply into the claim of 22 gallons per pound of plastic. I was mostly trying to point out that if we are worried about the water used to wash a straw we should also worry about the amount of water used to make plastic straws. I appreciate you calling my out for not backing up my claim, I didn't feel the need since I wasn't trying to prove the claim of 22 gallons. I tell my students each and every day they need to back up their claims. You dispute the claim because you can't find the reference, not sure that is science either.

I feel like I have a pretty good handle on water cycle science and never claimed the water could not be reused in anyway. I spend a lot of time researching, learning, discussing, and teaching ecology based science. While it is not my specialty, I feel confident that I put a lot more time and energy into this topic than the average person.

Hopefully someday I will learn to check science references and learn to think for myself.
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I am sorry that you chose to take that as a personal attack, it was not intended that way.

I took issue with the way the water usage was presented by whoever put forth the claim that seems to be everywhere on the internet. The google links I clicked on did not have any supporting evidence to validate the claim. In spite of the lack of any supporting evidence, it's has been spread far and wide and clearly it continues to be perpetuated, largely unchecked.
 
Stephen

Stephen

Who Dares Wins
Moderator
Location
Never Far From Nowhere
Noahfecks said:
I am sorry that you chose to take that as a personal attack, it was not intended that way.

I took issue with the way the water usage was presented by whoever put forth the claim that seems to be everywhere on the internet. The google links I clicked on did not have any supporting evidence to validate the claim. In spite of the lack of any supporting evidence, it's has been spread far and wide and clearly it continues to be perpetuated, largely unchecked.
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So check it. If you’re so tired of this claim floating around without validation, take the initiative and find the facts for yourself.
 
mesha

mesha

By endurance we conquer
Location
A.F.
Noahfecks said:
I am sorry that you chose to take that as a personal attack, it was not intended that way.
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Weird it was taken that way.
He says, "Please learn to think for yourself". Not directed at you.....;)

I was being honest when I said I was glad you called me out for not checking references. There would probably be a lot less fighting and division in the world if people would check facts.
 
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