jesse
Masshole
- Location
- Everywhere
are there any places around there to rent equipment? or just anywhere between orem and there
Montezumas tunnels in Kanab to be erradicated...
- Thread starter e28bimmer
- Start date
Rock Hound!
ROK JNKY
- Location
- Ogden
I was just talking to my buddy yesterday about the dive, would be exciting to check it out. Find some gold and build one hell of a machine, and wheel for life
Don B
formerly rebarguy
- Location
- Southern Utah
Just a follow up. Corey and the Gold Rush Expeditions crew kick some serious butt.
They showed up in Kanab on Friday, and already had the attention of OGM and the GSENM BLM people who both sent representative to meet with them.
We visited the site with the OGM people on Friday. Saturday we met with Mark Habbeshaw and brought Kane County into the battle. Our state rep Mike Noel has now been brought up to date and will be working to support our position. There will be plenty of local support on this. Expect to see more on this
Thanks Corey!!! These guys aren't working on road and trail issues, but I can't help but think what we could accomplish if there were more groups as effective as GRE working with us.
They showed up in Kanab on Friday, and already had the attention of OGM and the GSENM BLM people who both sent representative to meet with them.
We visited the site with the OGM people on Friday. Saturday we met with Mark Habbeshaw and brought Kane County into the battle. Our state rep Mike Noel has now been brought up to date and will be working to support our position. There will be plenty of local support on this. Expect to see more on this
Thanks Corey!!! These guys aren't working on road and trail issues, but I can't help but think what we could accomplish if there were more groups as effective as GRE working with us.
Pics of the excursion at:
http://www.goldrushexpeditions.com/Galleries/Kane/Montezuma.htm
And the following letter was just mailed out to all interested parties.
Tuesday, April 15, 2008
Synopsis of initial contact re: Tunnels in Kanab
The purpose of this visit was to document the tunnel site and make an assessment as to the historical value of the site and the safety factor of the site. GRE made plans to meet up with Bob Croft, a local historian and Don Black, a representative of the U4WDA. GRE also sent notice to the Division of Oil, Gas and Mining, Doug Powell and the “general info” email at the Grand Staircase Escalante Natl Monument, Utah 4-Wheel Drive Assn., Ancient Historical Research Foundation and the Mojave Underground Exploration group.
Visiting the site on behalf of GRE, Inc was Corey Shuman, CEO of GRE, Inc, and Andrew Hatton-Ward, member of GRE, Inc. Also of note were 7 other members of GRE, Inc, that showed up from local and distant areas to support the actions of GRE, Inc.
An initial meeting was set for 1:30pm on the 11th, in the parking lot of the Shilo Inn. Upon arrival at the Shilo Inn, we were also met by Steve Fluke, Chris Rohrer, Rene Berkhoud, Doug Powell as well as an Archeologist from GSENM and a BLM rep sent from the county.
We held a brief discussion of the plans for the closures in the Monument and in Kane County. Mr. Berkhoud was very diplomatic and friendly in his approach and informed us that no decisions had been made and that the OGM and the Monument were doing more of a scoping operation. Mr. Powell seemed a bit more abrasive indicating that the closures were pretty much already a done deal. We explained our interest in the history of the site and that we did not want to see it destroyed. The plan from our understanding is that OGM intends to gate the main portal and backfill all the other holes. Their point of view is that this will retain the “historical feel” but mitigate any liability for the BLM.
We broke after about an hour of discussion and headed up for the site. We were joined by the OGM reps and the BLM rep. The road to the site is relatively mild but very sandy. 4 wheel drive would be recommended for the entire route. Nearer the site, the sand gets very deep and 4 wheel drive is mandatory.
We hiked up to the tunnel entrances and found the hike to be quite steep and technical. The average person can navigate to the tunnels, but there is no access for any handicapped or challenged individuals. There is also no signage or indication of the presence of the tunnels, even from the base of the cliffs under the tunnels, it is difficult to tell that there is anything unnatural up on the face of the cliff. There are ancient steps cut into the cliff face in two separate spots. Once at the openings of the tunnels the GRE group entered and documented each tunnel from the entrance to the ends of each tunnel. Those findings are as follows:
1. Tunnel #1 – A short, very natural looking cavern. This adit ran back about 60 ft. Average height was about 5 ft. with a sandy floor.
2. Tunnel #2 – This tunnel has a steep approach, it is 8-10 foot ceilings and is about 4 feet wide at any given point. There is a natural vertical opening 25-30 feet in. At the end of the tunnel is a slope that ends in a vertical drop off of approximately 15 feet. A ladder was left in the bottom of this shaft.
3. Tunnel #3 – This is the main tunnel. The area around this entrance is covered with literally thousands of inscriptions from visitors. We noted dates from 1939- 2004. This tunnel cuts in at a bit of an angle and then turns back in to the right. About 40 feet in is an open pit that appears completely natural. It is about 6 feet around and 15-18 ft. deep. There is also a ladder in the bottom of this opening. There are some very sturdy boards that are set across this opening to allow for further exploration. The tunnel continues approximately another 70-80 feet before it begins to narrow, and then opens into a large room with more inscriptions. At this point the tunnel “T”s off, to the right is a short tunnel that has a lot of crickets in it. The opening is about 20 inches tall and the only way to explore is to belly crawl in. To the left, is another small room that seems to dead end. We found 2 bats in this room. For the most part, the ceiling on this tunnel is 8-10 ft tall and 7-8 ft. wide
4. Other tunnels, there are approximately 4 other small tunnels in the general vicinity. All are very small (less than 3 ft. opening) and non extending more than 12 feet into the cliff face.
It is our opinion that these tunnels are natural in origin. They may have been filled with sand and slightly reworked to allow plugs to be inserted. But the overall tunnels appear to be completely natural. It is GREs expert opinion that these tunnels pose no viable danger to the community or any other persons who may visit the site. It is also the opinion of GRE that there is a fantastic historical value in these tunnels. In the folklore, the surrounding ancient steps and granaries, and in the inscriptions that have been made by the visitors to the sites since it was found.
It is also the opinion that any change or manipulation in the site, by the Division of Oil, Gas and Mining AML program or the BLM in an effort to mitigate non-existent danger will only not only damage the site beyond repair, but is also a violation the intent of section 106 and The National Historic Preservation Act (NHPA), which includes provisions that specifically address Federal Agencies' responsibilities when their activities involve National Historic Landmark (NHL) properties. Section 106 and its implementing regulations, "Protection of Historic Properties" (36 CFR Part 800), address Federal Agency (Agency) responsibilities when an undertaking will affect properties eligible for or listed in the National Register of Historic Places and we feel that these responsibilities have been sorely neglected.
It is GREs stand that this site is in need of no action of any sort. Any action taken on this site will permanently destroy the site in its present state and there will be no method of remediation. We recommend action at the County and State level, with possible escalation to the national level to bring attention to this area and the proposed destruction of this important and historical site.
Our plan of action, at this point is being defined with the Kane County commission. We are also making contact with Governor Huntsman and the US Office of Surface Mining and Reclamation Enforcement.
The key players in this action are as follows (email addresses have been provided where available):
OSMRE: www.osm.gov
Brent Wahlquist, Director of OSM
Allen D. Klein, Regional Director
DOGM: ogm.utah.gov
Luci Malin – AML administrator
Steve Fluke – Project Manager
Chris Rohrer – Environmental Scientist
GSENM: http://www.blm.gov/ut/st/en/fo/grand_staircase-escalante.html
Berkhoud, Rene – Manager
Powell, Doug – Geologist
KANE County: http://www.kaneutah.com/
Mark W. Habbeshaw – Commissioner
Robert Houston – local economic interest
Gold Rush Expeditions, GRE, Inc. www.goldrushexpeditions.com
Corey Shuman – CEO, GRE, Inc.
Andrew Hatton-Ward – Govt. – Community Relations
Bob Croft – Member/Historian
Terry Carter – Member/Historian
Ancient Lost Treasures Historic Society –Historic reference team
Independent Organizations
Mojave Underground – Interested Party - www.mojaveunderground.com
If you have thoughts or comments about this synopsis, please relate them to info@goldrushexpeditions.com .
Sincerely,
Corey T. Shuman
http://www.goldrushexpeditions.com/Galleries/Kane/Montezuma.htm
And the following letter was just mailed out to all interested parties.
Tuesday, April 15, 2008
Synopsis of initial contact re: Tunnels in Kanab
The purpose of this visit was to document the tunnel site and make an assessment as to the historical value of the site and the safety factor of the site. GRE made plans to meet up with Bob Croft, a local historian and Don Black, a representative of the U4WDA. GRE also sent notice to the Division of Oil, Gas and Mining, Doug Powell and the “general info” email at the Grand Staircase Escalante Natl Monument, Utah 4-Wheel Drive Assn., Ancient Historical Research Foundation and the Mojave Underground Exploration group.
Visiting the site on behalf of GRE, Inc was Corey Shuman, CEO of GRE, Inc, and Andrew Hatton-Ward, member of GRE, Inc. Also of note were 7 other members of GRE, Inc, that showed up from local and distant areas to support the actions of GRE, Inc.
An initial meeting was set for 1:30pm on the 11th, in the parking lot of the Shilo Inn. Upon arrival at the Shilo Inn, we were also met by Steve Fluke, Chris Rohrer, Rene Berkhoud, Doug Powell as well as an Archeologist from GSENM and a BLM rep sent from the county.
We held a brief discussion of the plans for the closures in the Monument and in Kane County. Mr. Berkhoud was very diplomatic and friendly in his approach and informed us that no decisions had been made and that the OGM and the Monument were doing more of a scoping operation. Mr. Powell seemed a bit more abrasive indicating that the closures were pretty much already a done deal. We explained our interest in the history of the site and that we did not want to see it destroyed. The plan from our understanding is that OGM intends to gate the main portal and backfill all the other holes. Their point of view is that this will retain the “historical feel” but mitigate any liability for the BLM.
We broke after about an hour of discussion and headed up for the site. We were joined by the OGM reps and the BLM rep. The road to the site is relatively mild but very sandy. 4 wheel drive would be recommended for the entire route. Nearer the site, the sand gets very deep and 4 wheel drive is mandatory.
We hiked up to the tunnel entrances and found the hike to be quite steep and technical. The average person can navigate to the tunnels, but there is no access for any handicapped or challenged individuals. There is also no signage or indication of the presence of the tunnels, even from the base of the cliffs under the tunnels, it is difficult to tell that there is anything unnatural up on the face of the cliff. There are ancient steps cut into the cliff face in two separate spots. Once at the openings of the tunnels the GRE group entered and documented each tunnel from the entrance to the ends of each tunnel. Those findings are as follows:
1. Tunnel #1 – A short, very natural looking cavern. This adit ran back about 60 ft. Average height was about 5 ft. with a sandy floor.
2. Tunnel #2 – This tunnel has a steep approach, it is 8-10 foot ceilings and is about 4 feet wide at any given point. There is a natural vertical opening 25-30 feet in. At the end of the tunnel is a slope that ends in a vertical drop off of approximately 15 feet. A ladder was left in the bottom of this shaft.
3. Tunnel #3 – This is the main tunnel. The area around this entrance is covered with literally thousands of inscriptions from visitors. We noted dates from 1939- 2004. This tunnel cuts in at a bit of an angle and then turns back in to the right. About 40 feet in is an open pit that appears completely natural. It is about 6 feet around and 15-18 ft. deep. There is also a ladder in the bottom of this opening. There are some very sturdy boards that are set across this opening to allow for further exploration. The tunnel continues approximately another 70-80 feet before it begins to narrow, and then opens into a large room with more inscriptions. At this point the tunnel “T”s off, to the right is a short tunnel that has a lot of crickets in it. The opening is about 20 inches tall and the only way to explore is to belly crawl in. To the left, is another small room that seems to dead end. We found 2 bats in this room. For the most part, the ceiling on this tunnel is 8-10 ft tall and 7-8 ft. wide
4. Other tunnels, there are approximately 4 other small tunnels in the general vicinity. All are very small (less than 3 ft. opening) and non extending more than 12 feet into the cliff face.
It is our opinion that these tunnels are natural in origin. They may have been filled with sand and slightly reworked to allow plugs to be inserted. But the overall tunnels appear to be completely natural. It is GREs expert opinion that these tunnels pose no viable danger to the community or any other persons who may visit the site. It is also the opinion of GRE that there is a fantastic historical value in these tunnels. In the folklore, the surrounding ancient steps and granaries, and in the inscriptions that have been made by the visitors to the sites since it was found.
It is also the opinion that any change or manipulation in the site, by the Division of Oil, Gas and Mining AML program or the BLM in an effort to mitigate non-existent danger will only not only damage the site beyond repair, but is also a violation the intent of section 106 and The National Historic Preservation Act (NHPA), which includes provisions that specifically address Federal Agencies' responsibilities when their activities involve National Historic Landmark (NHL) properties. Section 106 and its implementing regulations, "Protection of Historic Properties" (36 CFR Part 800), address Federal Agency (Agency) responsibilities when an undertaking will affect properties eligible for or listed in the National Register of Historic Places and we feel that these responsibilities have been sorely neglected.
It is GREs stand that this site is in need of no action of any sort. Any action taken on this site will permanently destroy the site in its present state and there will be no method of remediation. We recommend action at the County and State level, with possible escalation to the national level to bring attention to this area and the proposed destruction of this important and historical site.
Our plan of action, at this point is being defined with the Kane County commission. We are also making contact with Governor Huntsman and the US Office of Surface Mining and Reclamation Enforcement.
The key players in this action are as follows (email addresses have been provided where available):
OSMRE: www.osm.gov
Brent Wahlquist, Director of OSM
Allen D. Klein, Regional Director
DOGM: ogm.utah.gov
Luci Malin – AML administrator
Steve Fluke – Project Manager
Chris Rohrer – Environmental Scientist
GSENM: http://www.blm.gov/ut/st/en/fo/grand_staircase-escalante.html
Berkhoud, Rene – Manager
Powell, Doug – Geologist
KANE County: http://www.kaneutah.com/
Mark W. Habbeshaw – Commissioner
Robert Houston – local economic interest
Gold Rush Expeditions, GRE, Inc. www.goldrushexpeditions.com
Corey Shuman – CEO, GRE, Inc.
Andrew Hatton-Ward – Govt. – Community Relations
Bob Croft – Member/Historian
Terry Carter – Member/Historian
Ancient Lost Treasures Historic Society –Historic reference team
Independent Organizations
Mojave Underground – Interested Party - www.mojaveunderground.com
If you have thoughts or comments about this synopsis, please relate them to info@goldrushexpeditions.com .
Sincerely,
Corey T. Shuman
waynehartwig
www.jeeperman.com
- Location
- Mead, WA
That's too cool! I wish I could have gone. I really hope they don't shut this down, as I would like to visit some time!!!!
Lifelong Jeeper
Well-Known Member
- Location
- Murray
Wow!! I am always appauled that not only does the OGM THINK they can do what they do but that they actually do it. I still frequently recall the article published in The Compass a year or two ago about the Spanish mines (if I remember right) in the Kamas/Oakley(ish) area and how they destroyed those sites.
Thank you for keeping us informed on these events and let us know what ever else we can do to halt these efforts.
I would be interested to hear how it goes with Gov. Huntsman. Hopefully he too will see these atrocities and will put a stop to it for good.
Thanks again and great write up.
Thank you for keeping us informed on these events and let us know what ever else we can do to halt these efforts.
I would be interested to hear how it goes with Gov. Huntsman. Hopefully he too will see these atrocities and will put a stop to it for good.
Thanks again and great write up.
waynehartwig
www.jeeperman.com
- Location
- Mead, WA
I agree. And funny, when you started this post I was thinking about that same article!! I can understand some reclamation if there are people getting hurt or it's unsafe, but if it's not unsafe or a major eye sore, it should be left alone for others to enjoy. Worst case, block it off with a gate and only allow guided tours. But don't destroy it.... Utah has TONS! of stuff like this and it would be a shame to see it all go away just because someone doesn't like holes in the ground.
thanks for the support guys. the funny thing is its a non-issue. they have totalled up 5 deaths since 1983 related to abandoned mines. so by that account its basically the safest thing you can do in the outdoors. I dont know about everyone, but I really have never run into anyone who comes across an old mine while they are out and about and says "oh, thats terrible, it should be closed". Its usually more of a "ohh, look at that, lets go explore it". Aside from that, its the history that is being lost at an alarming rate, if we dont stop it, you wont be able to find these random oasis of history in the backcountry, you will just be greeted by a pile of dirt that you can look at and say... hmm, I wonder what this used to be..