Noob run #2 May 6-7 - Wheeling trip for new members

[TJDukit]

This is looking like it's going to be a great crowd. My wife seems pretty excited to just hang out with a bunch of people, she has never been wheeling with a large group. Thanks for putting this together and getting the permit sorted out Steve. I'm looking forward to meeting all of you out there finally.

 

[sixstringsteve]

Thanks for putting this together and getting the permit sorted out Steve.

I love these trips. Hopefully the permit stuff gets sorted out and they don't want a $250 permit.

 

[sixstringsteve]

Ok, I got some GREAT info from JuLee Pallette over at the BLM. She was extremely helpful.

I only post this info to give some context for this event. If you are planning an event, do not rely on this info, it is for reference only. Please call the BLM and check with your situation, rather than referring to something you read online.

That being said, this is what Julie told me.

This whole "event" pretty much lives in the grey area of the rules, so it gets kinda dicey.

While there's no hard and fast rule, if we had over 25 vehicles out there, it'd be considered an organized event.

Organized events (on BLM property) need the following:


- a Special recreation permit (from BLM, $95 processing fee)

- This rec permit would cost $5 per person, per day, on top of the $95 processing fee​

- 3rd party insurance (not through BLM): the need for insurance can be waived if the following criteria are met:

- If the event is non-commercial (meaning we don't collect $)
- If the event is not advertised to the public (like on a message board)
- If there's no considerable impact or damage to BLM lands
- If all the above criteria are met, and the management deems insurance unnecessary​

Now, I can't afford to pay even the $95 processing fee, so here's the other option:


Letters of Agreement are for "non-organized events."

If we meet the following criteria, then we will only need a Letter of Agreement with the BLM, instead of a Special Recreation Permit.

- fewer than 25 vehicles
- don't announce the details of the event (when and where) publicly on the forum. I'd have to set it up where you PM me or call me for details. Otherwise it is considered a public event.





HERE'S the confusing part:

Now, Julie told me that rock crawling, or jeeping on the rocks, will most likely not get an insurance waiver since it's more dangerous than simply camping.

HOWEVER, some of the land at little moab belongs to SITLA. If we're wheeling on SITLA land, and staying off BLM land, then the BLM doesn't care if we have insurance, a waiver, a permit, or any of that stuff. At that point, I need to coordinate with SITLA to determine their criteria for permits/insurance/land use.

Now, supposing we camp on BLM land and wheel on SITLA land, there's a possibility that we could get a letter of agreement with the BLM to camp on their land, and then work with SITLA for the permits to wheel on the rocks (assuming STILA owns the rocks).


So there you have it. Let's discuss. I'm tempted to cancel it, and just say "watch the upcoming wheeling trips for a chance to learn how to wheel."

 

[TJDukit]

Ok so, maybe you "cancel" this trip. Give everybody a couple days to say their peace here and then delete the thread or just post that it has been canceled. Let everybody know about another trip by doing exactly what you said and watch the upcoming wheeling trips section.

Maybe just post up a trip and limit it to 24 rigs or post a 24 rig limit on the first post here. What can you do if more people decide to show up anyway. It is public land so if the organized part is limited to fit within the BLM's rules and more people happen to be out there you aren't responsible.

I'm sure there will be plenty of people out there that aren't part of the RME crowd anyway.

 

[sixstringsteve]

What can you do if more people decide to show up anyway. It is public land so if the organized part is limited to fit within the BLM's rules and more people happen to be out there you aren't responsible.

I'm sure there will be plenty of people out there that aren't part of the RME crowd anyway.

actually, I could still be fined, and I am still responsible if they're going to participate in our event. They say whenever there are more than 25 people out there together, it's pretty hard not to consider it a group event. I'm open to planning an event like this, but it looks like it'll take more planning up front.

Maybe a more appropriate venue would be at the Miller Motorsports Park, or even better would be someone's private land...

 

[TJDukit]

actually, I could still be fined, and I am still responsible if they're going to participate in our event. They say whenever there are more than 25 people out there together, it's pretty hard not to consider it a group event. I'm open to planning an event like this, but it looks like it'll take more planning up front.

Maybe a more appropriate venue would be at the Miller Motorsports Park, or even better would be someone's private land...

Well I guess you are right, it's not worth the risk of getting fined for this and it would make us as a group look bad if we were trying to skate around the rules.

Whatever happens I will be out to Little Moab that weekend.

 

[krany]

Maybe a more appropriate venue would be at the Miller Motorsports Park,

i bet if you were to call up or pm the rep here on rme for mmp they would be more than happy to help set this up, their off road area is pretty slick and is like little moab in range of difficult-ness

 

[Manlaan]

Interesting dilemma.

Not sure how feasible it would be, but I think one of the most important parts is keeping it under 25 vehicles in order to avoid the $220+ fee ($95 + (25*$5)). But based on the previous thing, it is likely to have more than 25 people that want to attend.

So, how about you get a list together of those that want to attend, not stating when or where and divide that into groups of 12ish or so plus helpers. You can then contact (via pm, whatever), each person and let them know when and where, which then it wouldn't be a public event, but a few different private events.

I know its a lot more work to spread it out over multiple weekends, and may be more work than you're willing to put forth. But that being said, there's no reason you should have to lead all the different weekends either (unless you want to), as I'm positive we could get someone else to step up for future weekends if needed.

I've never been to Little Moab, so I cant say, but is there a chance there's enough room for two completely separate groups to do two completely different areas with two different leaders? Maybe have a planned schedule that group A and group b does two different things, then the groups swap locations mid way through the day. This would really be walking quite a fine line though, but as long as everyone understood that the North group has nothing to do with the South group, it might work out.

Of maybe even completely different locations (5 mile for one group and little moab for another group)

As someone mentioned, something like Miller Motorsports Park might be a good option, as from my understanding, its hardly used. I cant really say how it rates compared to Little Moab. As far as difficulty goes, its not a huge area, but I believe it can accommodate everything from stock vehicles up to buggies, although there may not be a lot the min or max end of the spectrum will want to do. The big key to this would be to get the price down enough, as the non-discounted price is $35 each vehicle for the day. Wasatch Cruisers was able to get it to $10/vehicle last weekend, which I feel is about right. I dont feel that the offroad area can accommodate 25+ vehicles though. I really would like to take the 80 pickup to this place, as I was a bit hesitant to push my daily driver too much.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...As someone mentioned, something like Miller Motorsports Park might be a good option, as from my understanding, its hardly used. I cant really say how it rates compared to Little Moab. As far as difficulty goes, its not a huge area, but I believe it can accommodate everything from stock vehicles up to buggies, although there may not be a lot the min or max end of the spectrum will want to do. The big key to this would be to get the price down enough, as the non-discounted price is $35 each vehicle for the day. Wasatch Cruisers was able to get it to $10/vehicle last weekend, which I feel is about right. I dont feel that the offroad area can accommodate 25+ vehicles though. I really would like to take the 80 pickup to this place, as I was a bit hesitant to push my daily driver too much.

With a bit of organization it could handle 25, but it couldn't be a 'free for all'

If MMP is something you would like to look into I can look into it, I arranged the Wasatch Cruiser pricing and worked the event. We are planning to use the MMP for the fall event as to dodge permits and allow some good facilities for 'class room' time. LMK

 

[sixstringsteve]

thanks kurt. I think MMP is really the only way I'd be interested in continuing noob runs at this point.

 

[sixstringsteve]

Noob Run #2 is Officially Cancelled due to me not being able to get the proper permits in time.

Sorry about my lack of knowledge in these things, I'd love for it to be free for everybody with no permits, but we need to respect the few spots we've got left.

Sorry everyone, I just don't have time to work out all the kinks, and it's pretty disrespectful for me to only give the BLM 2 weeks to get the proper paperwork in order before the event. They've been great to work with, but I don't have the time or energy to hunt down the permits from two different agencies, in the next two weeks.

 

[krany]

thanks kurt. I think MMP is really the only way I'd be interested in continuing noob runs at this point.

what is it that we need to do to get the ball rolling on this? even if a later date is set to make it happen? i dont mind paying a bit to go specially to mmp, and i am sure others wouldn't either.

 

[Swoop69]

so is this a PM non event?

 

[sixstringsteve]

so is this a PM non event?

what do you mean?

 

[Swoop69]

what do you mean?

ill pm you...

 

[sixstringsteve]

Just to be clear, I will not be at little moab on the 6th or 7th. When I do go, ill post up in the upcoming wheeling trips thread.

 

[Venture13]

"801rcc( biggest rc crawling club in utah) probably was holding a competition out there"

I saw these guys at Mini Moab last Saturday, pretty cool event. I am still confused about the BLM permits with 25+ people. There is plenty of room out there to play around on, no real big trails. I did every trail there on my ATV in 4 hours.

By the book you would need a land use permit, but it seemed pretty rural out there for any enforcement. Sure people can hang by a camp fire for a little bit. Just seems like alot of work to hang out. Cool place, had to check it out for myself.

 

[krany]

but it seemed pretty rural out there for any enforcement. Sure people can hang by a camp fire for a little bit.

I have seen law enforcement out there several times. They don't not go out there. They know where that area is and on major weekends such as labor day, memorial day, July 4th etc they will be out there every now Ans then.

 

[Venture13]

Good to know, most likely I would use as a daytime recreation area.

 

[sixstringsteve]

it's not illegal to wheel out there, it's just illegal to have a big group activity wheeling on their land without a permit.

Even if we could do it and not get caught, I want to respect the BLM's policies and adhere to there rules. If we try to skirt around the rules, we'll start seeing our trails get closed even faster than they already are.