General Tech Power Steering...the Hard Way

Vonski

nothing to see here...
Location
Payson, Utah
This valve is a stand alone valve of the same type that is in every saginaw power steering box ever made...really any power steering box, rack, etc. So yes, load sensitive. The difference is, instead of little tiny ports like the valve built into a steering gear, these ports are massive. Some where between 5/16 and 3/8" diameter. The "competitor's" spool shown in the image below is the Sweet servo if I'm not mistaken.


And here is a plot for the valve response curves with valve port profiles. My valve is the "55". It has a .210" torsion bar in it. Depending on how it behaves, I may have to size the torsion bar up or down in diameter to tune the steering feel to my liking.


If you want to go deeper in depth, you can look at the Woodward catalog. My valve is the VA955. Tech on pages 3 and 4 of the catalog.
Woodward Catalog

In the event of a blown line or pump failure, I will still have manual steering control. There will be no hydraulic lines going to the box. I've deleted all the hydraulics and welded the saginaw torsion bar assembly solid. I've essentially built a fast ratio manual steering gear and will be packing it full of moly grease like they did back in the day. Came across this nifty site detailing old manual steering gears. Here's a link for those that care.

Old Steering Gear Tech
You’re doing what I thought you were, but that reply will certainly answer any questions that other’s may have. It’ll never happen, but I’d love to hear you have to explain this to a Highway Patrolman accusing you of running full hydro. It kind of is, but with road feel and a mechanical relationship from driver to tires.
 

Ashcat

Active Member
Location
Wisco
I disagree. It’s not “full hydro” or kinda like in any sense, of any vernacular or any context. There is no confusion or argument.

It’s (servo or spool valve) the exact same component found inside of every power steering gear. It’s simply remotely mounted and engineered in a manner that allows a larger volume of oil to flow sufficient enough to achieve greater steering strength and speed desired for X application.

The (double ended ram) piston assembly once again is remotely mounted.

The steering gear itself with the exception of aborting the fluid circuit (redirected to the remote spool valve) and rendering the torsion bar inoperable (the remote valve has a torsion bar) remains unchanged and still maintains the same mechanical ratio and connectivity in the steering system. There’s no need to argue safety, laws, beliefs or opinions. It’s not witch craft.
 

RockChucker

Well-Known Member
Location
Highland
I disagree. It’s not “full hydro” or kinda like in any sense, of any vernacular or any context. There is no confusion or argument.

It’s (servo or spool valve) the exact same component found inside of every power steering gear. It’s simply remotely mounted and engineered in a manner that allows a larger volume of oil to flow sufficient enough to achieve greater steering strength and speed desired for X application.

The (double ended ram) piston assembly once again is remotely mounted.

The steering gear itself with the exception of aborting the fluid circuit (redirected to the remote spool valve) and rendering the torsion bar inoperable (the remote valve has a torsion bar) remains unchanged and still maintains the same mechanical ratio and connectivity in the steering system. There’s no need to argue safety, laws, beliefs or opinions. It’s not witch craft.
Well put. Arguably the only safety difference is that now the "tie rod" is in 3 individual rods with elbow's in between them. Should the cylinder mount fail, the sh!t is gonna hit the fan in a bad way. But that isn't anything I'm worried about, and any IFS setup with a rack and pinion or even idler arm setup has the exact same potential fail point. Not sure how I missed @Vonski 's post, but this articulates my thoughts well. Thanks Ashcat.
 

Vonski

nothing to see here...
Location
Payson, Utah
I disagree. It’s not “full hydro” or kinda like in any sense, of any vernacular or any context. There is no confusion or argument.
Of course it’s not full hydro, but the appearance of the double-ended ram will no doubt fool many people. If my statement read, “It kind of is, in appearance, but your setup has...”, you could have saved yourself a lengthy post. I started reading your snarky reply until I got to “vernacular” 🙄, then saw multiple paragraphs beyond that and lost interest. I’m getting old, and confrontational posts are dumb. I’ll be following your build as well and I’m hoping to be impressed. Carry on.
 
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Ashcat

Active Member
Location
Wisco
Of course it’s not full hydro, but the appearance of the double-ended ram will no doubt fool many people. If my statement read, “It kind of is, in appearance, but your setup has...”, you could have saved yourself a lengthy post. I started reading your snarky reply until I got to “vernacular” 🙄, then saw multiple paragraphs beyond that and lost interest. I’m getting old, and confrontational posts are dumb. I’ll be following your build as well and I’m hoping to be impressed. Carry on.
You can take it as snarky if you wish, sorry if you did and lost interest in what I had to share. I was simply explaining in detail how it works and why it’s not be to confused with full hydro so others don’t get the wrong idea. Wouldn’t you defend and clarify why something is or is not the way it is?
 

RockChucker

Well-Known Member
Location
Highland
Made some moves this weekend. Finally got my tie rods back from the machine shop. I paid a buddy to drill and tap the holes in his spare time. Only took 2 1/2 months haha oh well. I was ok to be patient. I got the servo mounted and steering shaft assembled. I think the quick ratio box sans quickener will be much better than the slow ratio box with the quickener. Cycled the steering back and forth and did the best alignment I could working solo with a tape measure. I had both shoes on, so it should be within about 1/16”. The steering cycles well and the passenger knuckle hits the stop the same time the cylinder hits its stop. It looks like I’ll have to add between .090” and .100” to the driver stop as it comes up a little shy. But I’m not going to do anything until I get a real alignment (read: help with a tape measure) done. I broke down and ordered a 3rd cylinder clamp too. Not sure I want to trust all the force with just 2 aluminum clamps.
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RockChucker

Well-Known Member
Location
Highland
Finally got the motor and trans situated so I could mount the radiator. Verified clearances for the rad mount are good and decided to stare at the sun a lot and weld the cylinder mount on...at least as far as I could until I ran out of gas...always happens on the weekend. I swear.

I dropped my tank off at humphries to fill. After I finish welding the cylinder mount out, next will be paint and routing steering lines.
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RockChucker

Well-Known Member
Location
Highland
All the effort paid off. The steering is smooth as butter. Can't wait to get some tires mounted up and the front end on the ground.
 

Herzog

somewhat damaged
Admin
Location
Wyoming
All the effort paid off. The steering is smooth as butter. Can't wait to get some tires mounted up and the front end on the ground.
I saw you post that last night and now I finally "get it". Nice work!
 

Herzog

somewhat damaged
Admin
Location
Wyoming
Cool beans. Funny seeing the comments on IG. It's mind boggling to so many people that a double ended cylinder doesn't automatically just equal full hydro...maybe I'm the crazy person thinking a hydro cylinder is just a cylinder? haha
Yea for sure, seeing it cycle, that cylinder is just part of the overall tie-rod. Makes perfect sense! Impressive part is the fact that it cycles synced with the steering box. Well done man.
 

RockChucker

Well-Known Member
Location
Highland
Got some tires mounted up today and set it down on the ground. At idle I can saw the wheel back and forth as fast as I want. I can’t wait to take this thing for a rip and see how the steering is to drive. It already feels loads better than the old hydro assist felt. Way more responsive and crisp.
 

rockskullz

New Member
Any updates? Curious to know how it drives. I’m putting together a similar setup but with a JK box inspired by this thread. Never had a hydro assist I’m happy with, been looking at the Rantz setup for sometime but this one looks better. Also what power steering pump are you running?
 

RockChucker

Well-Known Member
Location
Highland
Any updates? Curious to know how it drives. I’m putting together a similar setup but with a JK box inspired by this thread. Never had a hydro assist I’m happy with, been looking at the Rantz setup for sometime but this one looks better. Also what power steering pump are you running?
Jeep has been at the engine/trans tuner for a month waiting in line. Supposedly they are starting on it today. That said, I put about 100 miles on it with the trans in limp mode to break in the new motor before tuning. The steering works really well. I am going to swap out the steering valve for a different profile from Woodward. I currently have the VA955. It is extremely sensitive and puts the power to the ground so quickly that it is twitchy. In a vehicle that was 100% offroad, I think it would be sweet, but it is a little touchy for driving around down. I'm going to send my valve back to Woodward and have them convert it to a VA950-2. It has a much more gradual steering power input. Look at page 4 in the link below:

Woodward defaults to the VA955 for anything that has big tires. I don't agree with that, knowing what I know now, but is what it is. Mine also has a .210 torsion bar, and I'll have them put in a .195 torsion bar on the rebuild. I'm running a Howe TC pump. I've had it for years and it worked ok when I had normal hydro assist. Now it is phenomenal in a system that isn't so restricted. I'll have a better report after I get it out in the dirt and at speeds higher than 35 mph on the road. I can immediately say that it is very nice to not have a dead spot in the middle so the tie rod can roll over. Mine wasn't bad compared to some, but still had a dead spot I wasn't a fan of.
 
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