Protests

Cody

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Gastown
I just talked to a good friend of mine that lives in Portland....not far from downtown (NW 25th). She says it's a complete shit show downtown, but it's mostly confined to a 4 block area. Since all of the police are dealing with that mess, crime and vandalism have increase throughout the entire city, and all of the homeless population (which if you've never been to Portland, homelessness is on a different level than SLC on it's worst day) is basically just camping out wherever they want now since there are no police to enforce their already lax rules on where they can camp in the city and a grassy parking strip under a tree is nicer than a freeway overpass. She says the media is probably overly embellishing the scope of the riots a bit, but what's really happening is people that have no investment or participation in the programs/rules of the city (homeless, dumb kids) are just using this as an opportunity to have fun causing trouble, and its the same groups protesting/rioting every available cause on either side.

Pretty annoying, but 100% expected. I'm 100% for the need to reform some of the processes in the police department, but I'm 100% for the need for police. Portland is weird, and they hang their hats on being different, so I'm sure that's why they are so hesitant to let federal troops come in to help. They kind of think of themselves as this weird liberal bubble...kind of like Texas thinks of it's self as a sovereign nation....but eventually they have to stop letting people destroy their city.
 
I had a brother who lived in Portland for most his life. Definitely a different vibe there. The way their mayor is handling this is completely crazy to me, but maybe that is what the public expects there. I just hope the rest of the nation doesn't have to pay for their strange ideas.
 

Spork

Tin Foil Hat Equipped
From what I've heard about Portland is they have turned into a catch and release program, they arrest someone and the next day they are out at it again. It's interesting reading the comments on the various news stories that are located in Portland.
 

glockman

I hate Jeep trucks
Location
Pleasant Grove
But some people feel they are in "imminent danger" in different situations. When that dude punched me through my window and tried to pull me out of my car, I fealt threatened, but would I have pulled a concealed carry on him? Lol, **** no. I've been around enough shit to know that guy wasn't going to do anything. I bet a lot of people here would have though and maybe they think they can decide it was time to forfeit his life. Maybe it comes down to how/where you grew up? My neighborhood wasn't exactly white or well-to-do, so I saw lots of shit.
I fought my way through most of my childhood. I'm not afraid of a boxing match if I'm alone. If you attack me with my family, I've seen and been in enough fist fights to know you can get knocked out at any moment and at that point I can't protect my kids so if you try and fight me in that situation, you brought fists to a gun fight. I personally go out of my way to not put myself in any of those situations. If I'm carrying, which is often, I smile and wave at the guy trying to road rage, Im not about killing people, I don't really know anyone who carries that is. It's a last resort after trying in every way to avoid the situation.
 

Cody

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Gastown
I guess I misinterpreted your comment about gun owners waiting for their opportunity to take their country back. I guess I took that as some sort of militia (what ethnicity do you picture that group being?) marching out to quell the storm on the streets with their civilian weaponry.

I get self defense, but there is also a difference between defending yourself from a situation that found you, and you willingly running into a situation that does not require you to be there. That kid that shot those people put himself there. He didn't need to be there. Killing those people doesn't make him a hero anymore than the rioters are hero's for what they are doing.The guy with the fire extinguisher got hit when he was attacking people with the fire extinguisher, not putting out a fire. I'm not saying any of it on either side is right or wrong...that's a lie...it's all wrong...both sides are ****ing wrong for the same reasons. In my opinion.

Personally, if my choice is to defend my business from an angry mob where the outcomes have a high potential of me or someone else being hurt or killed, I'm going to take that day off. You can have my shit. I'd rather not live with the memory of killing someone, or someone killing me. It's just stuff. If you're minding your business in your business, and the mob comes in to attack you personally, then that's when you defend yourself. Otherwise, they can have all of my shit.
 

ID Bronco

Registered User
Location
Idaho Falls, ID
I guess I misinterpreted your comment about gun owners waiting for their opportunity to take their country back. I guess I took that as some sort of militia (what ethnicity do you picture that group being?) marching out to quell the storm on the streets with their civilian weaponry.

I get self defense, but there is also a difference between defending yourself from a situation that found you, and you willingly running into a situation that does not require you to be there. That kid that shot those people put himself there. He didn't need to be there. Killing those people doesn't make him a hero anymore than the rioters are hero's for what they are doing.The guy with the fire extinguisher got hit when he was attacking people with the fire extinguisher, not putting out a fire. I'm not saying any of it on either side is right or wrong...that's a lie...it's all wrong...both sides are ****ing wrong for the same reasons. In my opinion.

Personally, if my choice is to defend my business from an angry mob where the outcomes have a high potential of me or someone else being hurt or killed, I'm going to take that day off. You can have my shit. I'd rather not live with the memory of killing someone, or someone killing me. It's just stuff. If you're minding your business in your business, and the mob comes in to attack you personally, then that's when you defend yourself. Otherwise, they can have all of my shit.

Is there any line you can see where you would willfully protect what's your's, what you've built for your family? This is interesting to me, I genuinely want to know.

Self defense, even the guy punching you in the face in the car could absolutely be defensible. I'm never looking to kill anyone, but living with myself if I have to kill to defend....................there are worse things that could happen to me or my loved ones. Which I believe would be cause for such an action.
 

Cody

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Is there any line you can see where you would willfully protect what's your's, what you've built for your family? This is interesting to me, I genuinely want to know.

Self defense, even the guy punching you in the face in the car could absolutely be defensible. I'm never looking to kill anyone, but living with myself if I have to kill to defend....................there are worse things that could happen to me or my loved ones. Which I believe would be cause for such an action.

If I have no choice, of course. But would I leave safety to go and protect...stuff? No. None of that has real value in the end besides what we place on it, and no stuff is worth more than my life, my family's life, and if I'm being honest, most likely the life of the person that is stealing from me. Don't get me wrong, there are some genuinely bad people out there that do a lot of harm to people and society as a whole, and those people may (or may not) deserve death, but that's not for me to decide. I'm not judge, jury, and executioner. It's stuff and none of it has more value than my life or the life of the person who is there.

If I had shot the guy that punched me in my car, I'd have to live with having taken some guy's life that had probably just had a really shitty day. Maybe someone forced him to eat a tomato while watching a baseball game and drinking a PBR. If home dude was coming at me with an axe? Different situation. Point is, you don't have to kill to defend in every defense situation. You should be able to deescalate situations, especially if people spent as much time training those skills as they do at the firing range. But if killing to defend life is the only option, then yes that's the option I would take. I personally would exhaust every other option before that, and with any luck be smart enough not to run head first into an avoidable situation.

My business partner just asked me a funny question about carrying fire arms and the current political climate. It's our constitutional right, yes and I have no problem with that. If I'm walking down YOUR street carrying a fully kitted out "assault" type rifle, that probably makes a lot of people in the neighborhood feel uncomfortable and very few feel safer (that's a fun argument though). But it's my right, right? What percentage of the neighborhood calls the police? I'd guess based on demography that most people on this forum would feel more comfortable with that than the general population. Now, if you saw a Muslim guy carrying that same weapon down your street, does your opinion change of that? Is your comfort level the same? What about a big black dude? What about a little Asian lady? Same comfort levels on all of them? They all have the same right. Are they all viewed the same by most people? Does the same percentage of the neighborhood call the police for each person? I think not. And you know what? If I'm being honest with myself I don't think of them the same and the point of a lot of this is for people like us who generally want to do good by all people, to look inside themselves and pick out some of the small parts of themselves that harbor those opinions and confront them.

I think that's the point of the black lives matter social movement (if we can detach it from the organization Black Lives Matter for a moment). Is that people do see people differently based on color. It doesn't matter how we got here, or who's at fault, or who's right or wrong. People that spout "all lives matter" aren't wrong (tone def perhaps), and if all lives matter, don't we agree that we need to become better as individuals and a society at treating everyone the same?

The riots are a totally different thing. That's just a bunch of monkeys showing shit at the fan.
 
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ID Bronco

Registered User
Location
Idaho Falls, ID
If I have no choice, of course. But would I leave safety to go and protect...stuff? No. None of that has real value in the end besides what we place on it, and no stuff is worth more than my life, my family's life, and if I'm being honest, most likely the life of the person that is stealing from me. Don't get me wrong, there are some genuinely bad people out there that do a lot of harm to people and society as a whole, and those people may (or may not) deserve death, but that's not for me to decide. I'm not judge, jury, and executioner. It's stuff and none of it has more value than my life or the life of the person who is there.

If I had shot the guy that punched me in my car, I'd have to live with having taken some guy's life that had probably just had a really shitty day. Maybe someone forced him to eat a tomato while watching a baseball game and drinking a PBR. Point is, you don't have to kill to defend. You should be able to deescalate situations, especially if people spent as much time training those skills as they do at the firing range. But if killing to defend life is the only option, then yes that's the option I would take. I personally would exhaust every other option before that, and with any luck be smart enough not to run head first into an avoidable situation.

My business partner just asked me a funny question about carrying fire arms and the current political climate. It's our constitutional right, yes and I have no problem with that. If I'm walking down YOUR street carrying a fully kitted out "assault" type rifle, that probably makes a lot of people in the neighborhood feel uncomfortable and very few feel safer (that's a fun argument though). But it's my right, right? What percentage of the neighborhood calls the police? I'd guess based on demography that most people on this forum would feel more comfortable with that than the general population. Now, if you saw a Muslim guy carrying that same weapon down your street, does your opinion change of that? Is your comfort level the same? What about a big black dude? What about a little Asian lady? Same comfort levels on all of them? They all have the same right. Are they all viewed the same by most people? Does the same percentage of the neighborhood call the police for each person? I think not.

I think that's the point of the black lives matter social movement (if we can detach it from the organization Black Lives Matter for a moment). Is that people do see people differently based on color. It doesn't matter how we got here, or who's at fault, or who's right or wrong. People that spout "all lives matter" aren't wrong (tone def perhaps), and if all lives matter, but if we can first just agree that for whatever reason people of color are viewed differently in some situations, then can't we all agree that we need to become better as individuals and a society at treating everyone the same?

The riots are a totally different thing. That's just a bunch of monkeys showing shit at the fan.


I have thought a lot about a post Jmobzz posted a few days ago that is similar to one of the statements above. "It doesn't matter how we got here, or who's at fault, or who's right or wrong." I don't think it's possible to disassociate how a view has been arrived at. For instance, if you've been attacked by a group of white meth heads and you are white, is it ok to be more nervous if you see a group of them coming at you at night, or wielding a gun in the neighborhood? What if your past experience has been poor with one race and not another? If you have served in Iraq and you feel more vulnerable when you see a mid easterner doing something provocative are you justified to feel differently about them? I do not believe an honest person can overlook past emotional experiences and not have reactions positively or negatively from them. What we do about it is the key. In the post I was referring to with Jmobzz, it was when his customer said they don't normally mess with the white people, just the black ones. Could it be that they have had a high rate of crime from black individuals which led to more profiling of them? I have no idea how they got there, but it could be that they aren't a bunch of sinister racist SOB's.

I have really realized that we all get what we look for. Good or bad, right or wrong we find what we seek. Racism, inequality, victim hood, bad relationships, happiness, peace, love, it's all out there for the taking. Which one am I going to choose?

Thanks for the perspective.

I agree on the riots, it's a crazy messed up show
 

glockman

I hate Jeep trucks
Location
Pleasant Grove
If I have no choice, of course. But would I leave safety to go and protect...stuff? No. None of that has real value in the end besides what we place on it, and no stuff is worth more than my life, my family's life, and if I'm being honest, most likely the life of the person that is stealing from me. Don't get me wrong, there are some genuinely bad people out there that do a lot of harm to people and society as a whole, and those people may (or may not) deserve death, but that's not for me to decide. I'm not judge, jury, and executioner. It's stuff and none of it has more value than my life or the life of the person who is there.

If I had shot the guy that punched me in my car, I'd have to live with having taken some guy's life that had probably just had a really shitty day. Maybe someone forced him to eat a tomato while watching a baseball game and drinking a PBR. If home dude was coming at me with an axe? Different situation. Point is, you don't have to kill to defend in every defense situation. You should be able to deescalate situations, especially if people spent as much time training those skills as they do at the firing range. But if killing to defend life is the only option, then yes that's the option I would take. I personally would exhaust every other option before that, and with any luck be smart enough not to run head first into an avoidable situation.

I've been thinking about this a bit. I agree that you should not go out looking to get into an altercation and stuff is just stuff and can be replaced most of the time. At what point does you and your families quality of life after an incident affect your life, liberty and Pursuit?

If your business gets destroyed and it bankrupts you, you can't do X for your children now, isn't that worth fighting?
If I am sitting in my car and someone thinks I cut them off and hits me in the head with a brick, it's not unthinkable that I would have some mental or physical issues after that which may mean I can't do my job anymore and my family suffers.

Would it be less difficult for you to deal with watching your kids play and not being able to play with them because home dude hit you with a brick than to think he should have handled his shit better and not gotten shot while committing aggregated assault? I think it's also worth noting here that there is a middle ground between sitting there and taking it and pulling a gun and shooting the dude. If you can't de-escalate, punch back to the limit of your ability then use force equalizers.

I hate the generalizations like "they" because people are so tribal. In situations like I'm talking about it's not "they", it's the one or two or 5 people directly trying to harm me or my family in a direct manner, with intent.

I understand putting yourself in the other persons shoes and trying to see if from their perspective, I just struggle with how someone looting, hitting innocent people in the head with bricks or pulling passers by out of cars and beating the shit out of them, thinks they are fighting for equality, race relations or police fairness. I think they are just a criminal element. Not rebels fighting for the cause.

Many of these rioters or protestors think you don't deserve your business because your white privilege is the only reason you have it. That is an unsustainable model. It doesn't lead to positive cultural change. I think we were headed in a positive direction before. There were 15 unarmed black men shot by police in 2019 with 300 million interactions between police and the public. That is amazingly low. The stats were headed in the right direction. So now seems like the most illogical and unreasonable time in my life to riot and protest for equality. The majority of people are against treating others differently based on their skin color. If not the majority, more than ever before in the history of the US and it was trending the right way.

Blaming store owners or people trying to drive to a destination without planning detours due to riots or marches seems like saying, She shouldn't have worn that dress if she didn't want to get raped. It's just wrong in my opinion.

I also think violence is just part of the human condition. The riots and looting and killing and beating of both sides isn't going to stop until there is either enough violence to deter people, or the threat of enough violence, meaning government backed and approved violence, to curb people's appetite for rioting, looting and beating the shit out of innocent bystanders.
 

TRD270

Emptying Pockets Again
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Location
SaSaSandy
Well that changed fast, he was shot and killed by police when trying to arrest him. No details yet, but i have to imagine Portland is going to burn tonight

 

Stephen

Who Dares Wins
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jackjoh

Jack - KC6NAR
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Location
Riverton, UT
Because "they" (certain "leaders" in this world) want us divided.
20 of my 90 years were spent voting and believing the democratic ticket, then 15 years voting democratic ticket, then the last 55 years voting for what I believed was the lesser of two evils (mostly republican) because the person I wanted did not have a chance to win. Our problems today are caused by politicians using their position to give money to voting blocks so they are re-elected, stay in office, and become millionaires. It is to their advantage to keep people in voting blocks, using terms like racist, 1%, unions, socialist's, democrat, republican, etc., with the help of the press. We are "We The People" of the united states and are all equal in freedom and possibility/opportunity of succeeding. Note this is not a guarantee of success or being supported by other people. I think we need to do the following: 1. Appoint more Constitutional judges. 2. Have vouchers for schools. 3. Get rid of all government run businesses except as required by the constitution. 4. Return all federal land to the states except as required by the constitution. 5. Pass a term limit law for politicians not just the President because politicians just think of themselves not the country. (virtually impossible at this time) 6. Vote Trump 2020.
 

jackjoh

Jack - KC6NAR
Supporting Member
Location
Riverton, UT
As far as defending myself, my family, my property, and my home are concerned. I will not go out of my way to protect someone else unless requested by someone I know and respect. I will not go out of my way and seek bad situations. If I find myself in a bad situation I CC and will defend myself, property or family and if not possible they can have all the property but will defend to the death my family. I will never seek confrontation but will defend.
 
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