Side by sides in Moab

[Herzog]

This has never been a conversation about dividing? At least not from my vantage point. This has been about getting an audience with those members and the fact as its harder and its relation to the increased number of rogue users in said usergroup.

I agree. Sometimes it takes a little confrontation to get people to stand together. Kind of like the kid you got in a fight with at school then became best friends.

 

[jgb]

Between 2000 and 2002, the North American utility vehicle market struggled to maintain its overall 100,000-unit level, for whatever gains were made in the consumer segments of the market back then were offset by ongoing declines in the commercial segments — golf, resort and industrial applications — which were severely impacted by the recession.
As the nation's economic recovery kicked in starting in 2003, the UTV market increased 17 percent, to 121,500 units from 103,000 units a year earlier. Growth accelerated another 36 percent in 2004, to 165,500 units. The market topped 200,000 units in 2005. Last year, the market jumped nearly 15 percent, to 231,000 units, with turf-type trucks accounting for nearly 85 percent of sales.
Consumer sales, which include farmers, ranchers and homeowners (large-acre estate owners, hobby farmers, hunters and recreational riders), represented about 40 percent of North American UTV sales in 2000. By 2003, consumers accounted for 47 percent of sales; by 2004 they surpassed commercial applications, increasing to a 55 percent market share. Over the next three years the consumer market continued to climb further, making up 70 percent of sales in 2006.
So since 2002, consumer purchases have been accountable for more than 90 percent of the overall growth in UTV sales. This trend was the result of several developments: the recovering economy, new competitors entering (and penetrating) the market through separate channels and customer bases, and established OEMs introducing upgraded series and brand-new models.

http://www.dealernews.com/dealernew...-Market/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/466206

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The use of the term OHV/ORV can be misleading if not explained and put into context. SUWA uses the term ORV to mean ALL off highway vehicles, Utah law uses the term OHV for:

Type 1 ATV (straddled)
Type 2 ATV (go karts, sand rails, dune buggies, rock crawler buggies, UTV's)
Motorcycles
Snow mobiles

The point being if one says that X many OHV's are registered, that includes a lot of different type and use vehicles. A snow mobile would have really nothing to do with our discussion on trail damage. The true sand rails and dune buggies will ride at Little Sahara and Coral Pink, NOT the local off road trails.

--

Nice pics below, note a lot of "wide" tire tracks.

http://redrockheritage.org/orv_gallery/ba1.html

http://redrockheritage.org/orv_gallery/ba2.html

http://redrockheritage.org/orv_gallery_2/

http://www.suwa.org/site/PhotoAlbumUser?view=UserAlbum&AlbumID=5821

--

Posted January 25, 2006 04:14 AM
This from today's Salt Lake Trib:

BLM greenlights Easter Jeep Safari
Backcountry driving: Activists say the popular, long-standing event harms sensitive lands near Moab
By Lisa J. Church
Special to The Tribune


Four-wheelers muscle their way up the Moab Rim Trail during last year's Easter Jeep Safari. The Bureau of Land Management approved this year's event despite complaints from environmentalists. The agency says it has changed routes and rules to reduce damage to the land. (Lisa Church)

MOAB -The Bureau of Land Management has renewed a Moab off-road club's permit to hold the annual Easter Jeep Safari in Grand and San Juan counties.
The decision met with harsh words from environmentalists who contend the federal agency did not do enough to protect sensitive lands from damage by off-highway vehicles.Now in its 40th season, the Jeep Safari annually draws more than 1,500 participants from around Utah and the nation. But the nine-day event also coincides with spring break for many college and high school students who flock to Moab for backcountry recreation, including off-highway driving.
In recent years, county officials have estimated that as many as 10,000 OHV enthusiasts who were not associated with the Jeep Safari have crowded into town and onto the area's backcountry trails throughout the
week.
This volume has caused law-enforcement headaches. And environmental groups have long complained that the event attracts thousands of "renegade" off-highway users who do not follow the rules. Some property owners also complain.
A San Juan couple have battled in court for two years to close a section of the Strike Ravine trail that passes through their property. A judge has ruled the Red Rock 4-Wheelers can continue to use the trail - at least temporarily - and this week the case appeared headed for appeal after the judge declined to vacate his decision.
Dan Kent, director of Red Rock Forests, called the BLM Monticello Field Office's decision to permit a guided trip into Arch Canyon during Jeep Safari "a sham." A perennial stream running through the canyon is home to native fish and makes it unique to southeastern Utah, Kent said.
Two years ago, Arch Canyon was awash in controversy when a San Juan County commissioner and the San Juan sheriff led a group of off-road vehicles down the eight-mile trail after the BLM denied a permit to an off-road event.

http://rcboards.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2226068942/m/5931081991

--

Deseret News (Salt Lake City), Mar 22, 2007

.....He's somewhat concerned about the popularity of the Easter Jeep Safari, not because 1,200 show up to register and run the trails but because 3,000-4,000 show up and don't register.
Those drivers drive all over without receiving proper instruction. Sometimes that means they'll meet the trail line head- to-head where there's no room to pass.
They tear up the countryside after the Red Rock 4-Wheelers have paid $45,000 to the Bureau of Land Management for an event permit and promised to tread gently.
"Without regulations and change, it'll kill the Safari," Nielson said.
The Safari itself is self-regulated by the 4-Wheeling organization. "We don't allow drinking. We charge participants per trail, provide a leader and helpers and tail gunners. We're there to help people get in and out safely."

--

If you extrapolate the numbers from the second article, 1200 register, participate, and ride responsibly, 3-4000 "crash the party". The use of the term "they" in descibing how "they" tear up the countryside would mean for every one responsible full sized off roader there is 3 irresponsible full sized off roaders. And this is wriiten by a Safari participant so no enviro bias in that article. His words.

 

[Crinco]

This has been about getting an audience with those members and the fact as its harder and its relation to the increased number of rogue users in said usergroup.

That may be what it has become, but that's not what it started as...

 

[Cody]

lol. I don't even know where to start.

As for the first post. Sure, nationaly 40% might be for farm use, but since Kurt specifically stated 40,000 in SL county, I'm going to REALLY go out on a limb here and say that there aren't 16,000 UHV's operating as farm implement in SL county. Would you like me to tell you how many farms are in SL county? Do you happen to know where SL
County is? Would you like me to post specific demography about it's inhabitants and the nature of it's economy (warning, it might not be agrarian based). Also, it seems Kurt was right. UHV sales have only started to rapidly increase in the last 6 years. If you're going to try to defend your personal opinions, at least use information that is valid to the argument at hand lol.

Is it "post random article without even making an effort to explain how they tie into the fuzzy claims that I might have been trying to make, while completely avoiding the actual issue at hand" day?

I hate that day. They always served cream corn.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...Between 2000 and 2002, the North American utility vehicle market struggled to maintain its overall 100,000-unit level, for whatever gains were made in the consumer segments of the market back then were offset by ongoing declines in the commercial segments — golf, resort and industrial applications — which were severely impacted by the recession.
As the nation's economic recovery kicked in starting in 2003, the UTV market increased 17 percent, to 121,500 units from 103,000 units a year earlier. Growth accelerated another 36 percent in 2004, to 165,500 units. The market topped 200,000 units in 2005. Last year, the market jumped nearly 15 percent, to 231,000 units, with turf-type trucks accounting for nearly 85 percent of sales.
Consumer sales, which include farmers, ranchers and homeowners (large-acre estate owners, hobby farmers, hunters and recreational riders), represented about 40 percent of North American UTV sales in 2000. By 2003, consumers accounted for 47 percent of sales; by 2004 they surpassed commercial applications, increasing to a 55 percent market share. Over the next three years the consumer market continued to climb further, making up 70 percent of sales in 2006.
So since 2002, consumer purchases have been accountable for more than 90 percent of the overall growth in UTV sales. This trend was the result of several developments: the recovering economy, new competitors entering (and penetrating) the market through separate channels and customer bases, and established OEMs introducing upgraded series and brand-new models...

Your proving my point. Your words "ATV/UTV sales have gone up over the past decade. No fad lasts a decade". My words "they have not been selling in masses for more than a couple of years". I stand by my assumption, they are a current fad.

...Nice pics below, note a lot of "wide" tire tracks...

Where are you coming up with this? Of course their are full-size users going off-trail... I've never said there were not. Again you need to focus in on one point and try and make it. I'll be the first to say we as 4x4 users need to reign in our users, but we are closer removed to our users than a ATV user so its an easier task, my point fro the beginning.

...If you extrapolate the numbers from the second article, 1200 register, participate, and ride responsibly, 3-4000 "crash the party". The use of the term "they" in descibing how "they" tear up the countryside would mean for every one responsible full sized off roader there is 3 irresponsible full sized off roaders. And this is wriiten by a Safari participant so no enviro bias in that article. His words.

Thats the biggest ass-backwards logic you've come up with yet? Almost as bunk as your "state street 4x4" logic. The downwind sirens screaming in Dugway today? Hundreds of RME members show up to EJS as non-registered participants. Are you calling them irresponsible? Why are we even discussing this? You want me to find the hundreds and hundreds of slanted anti-motorized and more specifically anti-ATV articles that the SL Trib has printed in the last couple of years. That isn't fact, its not even remotely fact. Its pure speculation both by you and the perception of the trail leader.

...The point being if one says that X many OHV's are registered, that includes a lot of different type and use vehicles. A snow mobile would have really nothing to do with our discussion on trail damage. The true sand rails and dune buggies will ride at Little Sahara and Coral Pink, NOT the local off road trails....

I'm well aware of the classifications relating to ORV's as well as the legal distinctions between them. Again we are not arguing that and my 40k number doesn't include snowmobiles.

Can't wait for the next round of your random wisdom. If you get a minute why don't you address some current

Besides being a "contributing" member of a bunch of forums with our out of the box buggy, what is your background in the land use scene of Utah? Ever been to a RMP meeting and counted the number of OHV users, mountain bikers or WAG groups? Ever planned a service project and invited the OHV groups? I hate for this to turn into a pissing match but if your going to present yourself as an expert on the subject we might as well hear your back ground.

Lets talk about you jgb, what associations or clubs are you a member of? How are YOU doing your part to educate your fellow users?topics:

 

[scoutabout]

No one can say a 2,000-3,000 lb truck/Jeep can do less damage to a trail than a 700-800 lb ATV/UTV.

Anyone can say that. Weight is not the factor. Use makes the difference. Any form of backcountry rec (from hiking to dirt bikes) can cause resource damage.

I have yet to see a Hummer out four wheeling in the West Desert

I have.

whatever happened to united we stand, devided we fall

It's a great bumper sticker, but it turns out that it's not a very practical idea.

 

[Spork]

Your proving my point. Your words "ATV/UTV sales have gone up over the past decade. No fad lasts a decade". My words "they have not been selling in masses for more than a couple of years". I stand by my assumption, they are a current fad.

I think they are here to stay. You can call them a fad if you like but you could call Jeep a fad back in 1950 also. My dad had an early Kawasaki Mule in the early 90s top speed was a whopping 20MPH, low ground clearance, but could haul 30 gallons of Diesel down to the sprinkler pump so it met his needs. Comparing the current UTV to that old Mule is like comparing a Model T to a JK. People are buying them because the UTV has changed to be something they want.

And I believe you can be an idiot as easy on a UTV as you can in a 4x4. It's not the vehicle's fault it has an idiot as a driver.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

I think they are here to stay. You can call them a fad if you like but you could call Jeep a fad back in 1950 also

You could have and you would have been wrong. Revive this thread in 2064 and tell me I'm wrong. (if we even have trails in 50 years ) Fad or not, the issue I've been harping on all along still exists as it has with ATV's for the past years. Reaching those members to involve them in the land use cause. I've never said their operators are ignorant, I grew up on ATV's and dirtbikes and still ride now. All I have said is that their user group is disfranchised from organized advocacy groups such as UTMA and given their vast numbers compared to 4x4's its not at all a surprise to see the majority of the damage and bad public will aimed at their users. Before we can address the problem we must come to accept the fact there is a problem. And when less than 1% of active OHV users are part of a group working on an organized front, its going to be hard to do.

For reference there were ~120k registered OHV's in Utah last year, the UTMA has ~200 members :-\ (If anyone knows the actual roster number I would love to hear it, this number comes from another Land Use insider who worked with UTMA on behalf of Usa-All)

 

[Gravy]

Whatever Happened to United We Stand Devided We Fall?

It's a great bumper sticker, but it turns out that it's not a very practical idea.

Actually it is.
I seem to remember that idea working well for some people during a certain Revolutionary War

You might be confusing "practical" with "easy"
(just giving you a hard time I have nothin' but love for ya )

Also Kurt, I'm not saying you or anyone else here is trying to create a rift between OHV users.

I'm just saying: WE just need to find a way to make our user group base larger.

One idea is:
If we actively create subgroups within U4WDA we could attract UTV, ATV, Dune buggy, moto users.
Not to mention folks are more interested and have more loyalty to a group that they see best representing their interests.
Each of these subgroups could have a commitee that reports at U4 meetings.

If we can find a way to "SELL" our ideas to other user groups we will would have more volunteers at cleanups, more people to write letters, more people that feel responsible to local trails, and more $dollar$ at our disposal.

and if we can find a way to Unite all OHV users so that the only animosity we have is against those who want to take away our rights,
we will have more power than if we waste away our time bickering between user groups about issues that are relatively small compared to the big picture we all are fighting for.
That's America right there

 

[cruiseroutfit]

One idea is:
If we actively create subgroups within U4WDA we could attract UTV, ATV, Dune buggy, moto users.
Not to mention folks are more interested and have more loyalty to a group that they see best representing their interests.
Each of these subgroups could have a commitee that reports at U4 meetings....

Thats a great idea, we've heard it a million times but a great idea. My answer is simple, if U4WDA had the manpower to even fulfill its current mission then it would be worth persuing but in the meantime it would be a waste of effort. If there are those that want to try and make it a possibility then YOU (not we should get involved with the existing associations ie the Utah Trail Machine Association and offer to help coordinate the two groups better. This would be a far more logical step then U4WDA trying to pirate the markets of others with zero expertise nor market/user data on the various groups.

Above that I don't see it as being practical, as Steve mentioned there are too many polarized issues for an grass-roots Association (U4WDA, UTMA, Utah Snowmobile, etc) to try and combine under one roof. There coordination needs to be done on a higher level such as with a group like Usa-All. Another system that is broke mostly due to apathy and lack of members. U4WDA is not and never should be a "Catch-All" for public land users. If your a 4x4 enthusiast, join U4WDA, if you are a ATV/UTV enthusiast, join UTMA, if your a snowmobile enthusiast, join both of the associations TUSA and SnowUt. Then beyond just joining, offer to fill the voids and fix the broken links between the two and make the hierarchy work!

 

[Gravy]

Great idea Kurt. I have a little more time on my hands. Point me in a direction where I can help. You got a PM.

 

[jgb]

Well, one person has called one of my posts a "meandering turd ", and also that I am "wasting my breath" and "my opinion isn’t worth a lot around here".

Another one cant wait for "my next round of my random wisdom".

Well, for turd posts and random wisdom, you guys sure are wasting a lot of your time responding to my turd posts and random wisdom.....What does that make you?
--

"out of the box buggy"

That was a good one. Just curious if you have something against someone who can afford an American made "out of the box" buggy?

I also have over 10K in my LT set-up on my truck.....Our '06 Jeep Grand Cherokee is paid for too.
--

The not seeing a Hummer four wheeling in the West Desert was a joke, did you not see the smiley face?

BUT, then again I made a statement based on my observation of NOT seeing a Hummer out in the West Desert. Is that not what this thread is about, making statements based on observation?

One has OBSERVED a lot of "narrow" tracks leading off onto the wildeness in his travels, that same one posts about all those ATVers riding off into the wilderness. A post based on observation.....

You Scoutabout HAVE seen a Hummer out four wheeling in the West Desert, hurray for you.
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The downwind sirens screaming in Dugway today?

Actually that was yesterday.....

--

I will agree that a lot of ATVers are loners, they go out by themselves.

I will agree that a lot of full sized 4x4's go out in groups.....maybe because they are always breaking down

A JOKE, see the smiley face?

 

[scoutabout]

Whatever Happened to United We Stand Devided We Fall?

Actually it is.
I seem to remember that idea working well for some people during a certain Revolutionary War

Ah touche. I meant that in the specific context of defending motorized recreation on public lands "united we stand" is not a practical concept.

Getting even 10% support from the 4x4 community is not easy, aligning all the varying interests of public land users under a single banner is impossible and not practical.

I'm just saying: WE just need to find a way to make our user group base larger.

Why make it any larger? U4WDA already has a user base in the 30,000 - 50,000 range made up of off-highway 4x4 users living in Utah. The low hanging fruit is to address those users and involve them in the issues before trying to widen the net to cover other groups.

One idea is:

It's not a U4WDA thing since U4WDA is focused solely on 4x4 use, but it's a great idea. Something USA-ALL might appreciate.

 

[scoutabout]

The not seeing a Hummer four wheeling in the West Desert was a joke, did you not see the smiley face?

BUT, then again I made a statement based on my observation of NOT seeing a Hummer out in the West Desert. Is that not what this thread is about, making statements based on observation?

One has OBSERVED a lot of "narrow" tracks leading off onto the wildeness in his travels, that same one posts about all those ATVers riding off into the wilderness. A post based on observation.....

You Scoutabout HAVE seen a Hummer out four wheeling in the West Desert, hurray for you.

Observation is fine, but the source should be considered. I don't think there's anyone in Utah with more annual 4-wheel trail miles than cruiseroutfit. His obersvations are based on 75+ days off-highway each year. And it's not just "ONE" who has made these observations.

I didn't see a jeep today, but I know they actually exist. But I do see narrow tracks (ATV, UTV) off-trail frequently. I sometimes see 4x4 tracks off trail as well. Additionally, I see off-trail single-track resource damage (and hill climbs). Based on my observations, I am confident in saying that ATV's/UTV's are responsible for more off-trail riding/driving than 4x4's. That's partially due to the larger number of ATV's/UTV's being used off-highway in comparison to 4x4's being used in the same capaciity. It doesn't mean ATV/UTV users are less concerned about closure, probably just less informed in most cases. As there are responsible 4x4 users and 4x4 organizations, there are responsible ATV/UTV users and ATV/UTV organizations.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...Just curious if you have something against someone who can afford an American made "out of the box" buggy?

I also have over 10K in my LT set-up on my truck.....Our '06 Jeep Grand Cherokee is paid for too.

Pat yourself on the back, suckers are born every day

Might as well toss in the square footage of your house, you annual income (pre tax of course) and how big your herd of cows is.

That or you could actually answer a question that was asked of you. I could care less how much you make, I could care less whom you buy your rig from of if you built it... I do care to hear the answers to these since you seem to represent yourself as an expert on the land use scene as it relates to the ATV/UTV owners:

What is your background in the land use scene of Utah? Ever been to a RMP meeting and counted the number of OHV users, mountain bikers or WAG groups? Ever planned a service project and invited the OHV groups? I hate for this to turn into a pissing match but if your going to present yourself as an expert on the subject we might as well hear your back ground.

Lets talk about you jgb, what associations or clubs are you a member of? How are YOU doing your part to educate your fellow users?

I have no clue who you are, mabey you are an expert and well vested amongst your usergroup, then again until you tell us we won' know.

 

[Cody]

That was a good one. Just curious if you have something against someone who can afford an American made "out of the box" buggy?

I also have over 10K in my LT set-up on my truck.....Our '06 Jeep Grand Cherokee is paid for too.
--

Basically what I'm getting from your truck, your 'buggy', and your inability to formulate a logical argument (being possibly representative of your other abilities), is that you can't afford a real 4x4 buggy, and can't afford a real desert truck and because you are so self conscious about it, you try to convince others that your delusion is in fact reality and the problem is with everyone else.

See how easy it is to make totally rediculous assumptions based upon no information?

Now, answer the question or admit that someone else might be right.

 

[jgb]

Lets compare the three biggest Jamboree's/Safari's/Rally's in Utah.


The Annual ATV Jamboree in the Paiute trails system:

Limited to 500 vehicles
No trail ride limit size
29 different trail rides


The Annual Jeep Safari in Moab:

No limit on vehicles
Does have trail ride limit size (from 25-60 vehicles)
33 different trail rides

If taking all rides all days and tallying up the totals you could in theory have 4,745 total vehicles traveling all 33 trails, assuming no one rode the same trail twice and all rides on all days were filled to max.


Moab UTV Rally:

We had about 150 vehicles last year
8 different trail rides



Now, any person could see more trail damage could and would be done during the Jeep Safari than the ATV Jamboree/UTV Rally. Also any person could see the chance of not catching rogue riders due to being overwhelmed with sheer numbers.

Also, you never hear of any groups talking about large numbers of rogue riders in the Paiute but you do see groups talking about large numbers of rogue riders in Moab.

I think some of you need to clean your own house before blaming others for the roque riders and off trail damage. Moab is known as the rock crawling capital, not too many "rock crawling" atv's/UTV's, minibuggies.

--

And, as I said in a previous post, my observations lead me to believe that most of the atv off trail riding at least in the West Desert is done by hunters, not the recreational riders.

 

[Cody]

1) that is not even circumstantial evidence supporting the position you still haven't even stated. Even if you had a point, I'm not sure you understand how to defend it.

2) My experience is different. For example, the Devil's racetrack was heavily used by ATV's and to some extent fullsize, but only ATV tracks could be found off the road. Zero hunting allowed in the area. How about in NV--Whitney pockets area east of Mead. An antire network of off-trail ATV paths, no hunting allowed.

2) You still didn't answer the question

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...If taking all rides all days and tallying up the totals you could in theory have 4,745 total vehicles traveling all 33 trails, assuming no one rode the same trail twice and all rides on all days were filled to max.

Thats great theory and all, but its a good example of a bad theory. They don't run every trail everyday and participation is more in the 1200-1500 range.

...Also any person could see the chance of not catching rogue riders due to being overwhelmed with sheer numbers...

So let me get this right. They have more show on the trails yet they are less likely to catch rogue users? Remind me how that works. Now consider the fact EJS also incorporates stepped up enforcement, tattle cards for trail attendees, as well as a giant contingent of responsible users, I don't see your point whats so ever??

..I think some of you need to clean your own house before blaming others for the roque riders and off trail damage. Moab is known as the rock crawling capital, not too many "rock crawling" atv's/UTV's, minibuggies...

OK, time to get the crayons out.

This conversation is NOT just about Moab, that just happens to be the subject of your random articles and stats. This is about lands all over Utah.

This conversation it NOT about assigning blame, its about addressing the difficulty in reaching the rogue users in a user group that is not particularly inclined to join a club or an association where peer pressure can bring them into line.

...And, as I said in a previous post, my observations lead me to believe that most of the atv off trail riding at least in the West Desert is done by hunters, not the recreational riders.

Where are you referring and when are you going to back up your expertise by answer a few simple questions?

What is your background in the land use scene of Utah? Ever been to a RMP meeting and counted the number of OHV users, mountain bikers or WAG groups? Ever planned a service project and invited the OHV groups? I hate for this to turn into a pissing match but if your going to present yourself as an expert on the subject we might as well hear your back ground.

Lets talk about you jgb, what associations or clubs are you a member of? How are YOU doing your part to educate your fellow users?

 

[Tacoma]

Interesting thread so far.

In Tooele County, visible ATV damage far outweighs the 4x4 crowd. At the county trails meeting, ATV concerns far outweighed 4x4 deals. Why? Because there are a lot more ATV users.

At EJS, I personally chewed out some riders near Hell's Gate who were inside a fenced-off area!!! They were "just having fun man, lighten up. Shawn, Meat, Greenjeep, Broncomama, and probably a few others saw them with me. The trail leader was a little put off that anyone said anything. What the hell.

As a U4WDA board member, I pay attention to off-trail vehicles, and it is MY experience that the vast majority of abuse that I've WITNESSED has been at the hands of dirtbike and ATV/UTV users.

The wheeling 4x4 usergroup is being educated by groups like U4, United, BRC, Friends of the Rubicon etc etc. Other wheeled usergroups are not receiving the same attention.

That's an issue that actually EXISTS, it's not theoretical. So what should be done about it? I think USA-ALL is off to a great start, and I hope they're urging their member groups to step it up... but let's not get all starry-eyed about the righteous ATV user.